Problem with first cooks on WSM 22.5 w Stoker

[cmonaghan76]

I am having issues. I hope we can figure it out.

I've been smoking for many years, probably 18 years. Started with a cheap offset from a home store - it was awful. Tried a charcoal Brinkman water smoker, decided it was too much work trying to keep temp. Tried a Brinkman electric water smoker, which I modified for thermostat control, and things were getting better, but never got great bbq, and never had a great smoke ring. I then tried a Smokenator in my Weber Performer - and LOVED it. Instantly my bbq was everything I had been looking for. Brisket was AMAZING. At that point I smoked exclusively with the Smokenator. When friends and family found out how good it was, I ran into capacity issues.

I attended Jack's Old South Cooking School (Myron Mixon) in June - and had the time of my life. And I knew then that what I had been doing with the Smokenator was on par with great bbq. But I still wanted better.

Coming back from the class, I had my eyes on an insulated charcoal smoker, but the $3000+ price tag for what I wanted caused me to cave and get a WSM 22.5 while I continue saving for something bigger. I bought a Stoker at the same time.

Now, having finished three cooks on the WSM with Stoker - I am NOT happy with how things are going.

Cook 1: approx. 7lb pork shoulder. No water in foiled pan. Used an aluminum pan on the lower rack as a drip pan above the water bowl. Stoker maintained 225 smoke temp, probe was on the rack near the shoulder. Started it mid-morning. Stalled at 145 for several hours. Stalled again at 150. And then stalled again at 165. At 3am, the meat was up to 180. 17 hours for a not finished shoulder. I was frustrated, pulled the meat, and went to bed. Meat was ok - by pulling it off early it didn't shred, but still made for good slices, especially reheated.

Cook 2: trial run of turkey for Thanksgiving. My only issue here was trying to get the WSM 22.5 up to 325. Very difficult. Never did get there. Using KBB. I'll probably use lump next time and start with more coals. The gravy pan beneath the turkey also didn't help. Turkey turned out moist, skin was rubbery because of the lower temp.

Cook 3: Brisket. 7lb packer. This is the cook that has me writing this post. Put it on at 1pm. Smoke ran at 225 very consistently. Same thing happened as with the pork. Major stall, like 5 hours at 145. No foil. No water in WSM. Total cook time to 195 was 16.5 hours. After a 2 hour rest in foil, the worse brisket I've ever cooked. Not tough, but super dry and crumbly. No moisture at all, very little fat between the flat and the point (there was tons before the cook). And no liquid in the drip pan. Very disappointed. Very confused.

Typically with the Smokenator, my cooks were on time or ahead of time. Never a major stall like I'm seeing here.

I did check the calibration on the probes with the Stoker and boiling water. They were slightly adjusted before the brisket cook.

With the major stalls having been at 145, where I would expect them to be happening higher than that, I have to wonder if the Stoker is giving me false readings.

I heard Harry Soo say recently that the Stoker has problems with the lower end power supply and that you should invest in the larger power supply.

Does anyone have any insight into what is going on here, mainly with the pork and brisket cooks? Do I need to check the probes at the same time (smoke and meat probes) with the blower running to see if electrical load is causing an issue? Is having an aluminum drip pan under the top rack, above the foiled water pan, causing an issue?

With the Smokenator, I always had water in the mini water pan. I also always crutched. With the WSM I've been cooking dry, and have not crutched.

I've gone from praised, proud, pit master to feeling like I'm just starting out all over again.

 

[jsperk]

What temp was your kettle running when cooking a butt or brisket? 225 took forever when I use to took that low.

I use to run my smokenator at least 270 or higher at food grate.

I never cooked on a wsm. I would also test the stoker probes in boiling water.

I'm sure some other guys with more experience and knowledge than me will chime in to help out.

 

[DetTigersFan]

Easiest solution is to cook hotter... I have a 22.5 WSM and I run it with Kingsford Comp around 270-300* and I get awesome results.
I also think the stoker is adding an extra element to your issues... The WSM temp holds very nicely without anything to monitor it for me since I switched to Kingsford Comp. All the ash with the blue bag was giving me temp consistency issues.

 

[Guest]

The stall is very simple in concept yet very complex. The stall happens when water evaporates from your meat, which in turn cools your meat via evaporative cooling.

A lot of factors go into what temperature the meat will stall. Cooker humidity, cooker airflow, cooker temp, and meat surface area are the main ones. Every cooker is different. Kamados will stall higher than WSMs and have a much moister cooking environment. That doesn't mean you can't crank you a better end product with a WSM. You just have to change your cooking technique based on your cooker.

Here are some things that can make your WSM stall at a lower temp than your kettle:
Higher airflow, lower cooker temp, and lower cooker humidity. These are all related to the thermal efficiency of your cooker. Your WSM has a lot more surface area to lose heat, so I wouldn't be surprised that it has higher airflow and lower humidity (they go hand in hand).

The question isn't how do we cook the meat the fastest, it's how to make delicious BBQ. I recommend raising the temp to 260-270, adding a water pan, and crutching when the color is where you want it. This will yield a much moister end product.

 

[RolandJT]

Something is wrong somewhere.

I cook really L&S compared to a lot of guys here--225 is my sweet spot on my WSM 22.5.

Even so I've never seen a stall at 145 or anywhere near that low.

Not sure what is up, but I use no automatic systems so i think yours may be going wrong?

My best guess is something is up with the Stoker.

 

[1buckie]

"Stalled at 145 for several hours. Stalled again at 150. And then stalled again at 165. "


Sumpthin' up................

Even with a probe right near the meat, humidity & airflow like Guest says could cause a difference, even a slight difference, with what actually goes on with the meat.....even 10 degrees means you're cooking @215............

Might take forever....and that's a long time.............

Lowest stall I've seen was high 150's (& I don't think that was even accurate).....just try going even up to 250, or just push towards above 225 even & think things will go better......

Here's a little scientamatific thing on slow cooking......

"When you cook, collagen begins to melt at about 160F and turns to a rich liquid, gelatin. This gives meat a lot of flavor and a wonderful silky texture. When cooking it is important to liquify collagen."


From Here:


http://www.scienceofcooking.com/meat/slow_cooking1.htm

 

[THoey1963]

I would try a butt on the WSM without the stoker. With the top vent open, two bottom vents closed, and the third about half way, my 22 likes to run around 275*. A 9# butt takes about 9 hours using foil when it gets to the color I like...

When I first got my WSM and IQ120, someone suggested learning the smoker before adding in the ATC.

 

[cmonaghan76]

I suppose I need to go back to what I know: using the water pan, and foiling. With the Stoker I maintain a near perfect 225 - temp control isn't the issue, unless there are probe problems. I could also run my Maverick probes alongside the Stoker to see if there is a difference. It's frustrating to have done so well in the past, but be doing so poorly on the new setup.

 

[BB-Kuhn]

225 does take ages. I'd either start wrapping through the stall, bumping the temp to 250-60 or both!

 

[chashint]

If you were monitoring the meat temperature was the probe in the flat?
Everything I read says to avoid putting the temp probe in the internal fat layer, I don't exactly know why....but could the meat probe have been in the fat layer?

The cook log below is my first brisket on the 22" WSM.
This brisket was cooked straight through without wrapping until being put in the cooler to rest.
This was the second cook in the unit so it is still brand new.

Brisket ... October 3
Temperature 63, wind is calm, clear sky
Full packer, select, ~12-13lbs from Walmart
Salt, pepper, garlic powder, onion powder for the rub
Scored the fat cap cross hatched before seasoning
Water pan foiled, dry, no water or heat sink
Full ring of charcoal
Started with ~20+ briquettes poured on top of coal bed
Oak chunks, 5 big fist size, one in middle of hot coals others on perimeter touching hot coals
Monitoring temps with Maverick
2300 meat on the grill
2330 grill temp 194
2355 grill temp 225, closed two vents, one vent ~40%
0010 grill temp 246, closed the vent to ~25%
0023 grill temp 250, closed vent to ~10%
0040 grill temp 250
0215 grill temp 266, (Maverick alarm woke me up), meat temp 145 closed vent some more
0500 grill temp 244
0810 grill temp 257, meat temp 160
Outside temp 46, sky clear, wind calm
0830 grill temp 255, closed vent so it is just cracked in expectation of heat gain once the sun hits it, dome thermometer reading 225
1000 grill temp 253, meat temp 174
1020 meat temp 180, some resistance to probe test
1045 meat temp 187, probes like warm butter, brisket feels soft and flexible
1045 wrapped in foil and put in cooler

I don't know what went wrong with your cook.
Dry crumbly brisket is over cooked.

 

[chashint]

I don't know why your WSM won't achieve 325+.

I have done two burns in mine, both started with a full fire ring and 15-25 lit briquettes.
The first burn was a 'see what it does' affair, but after playing with controlling the fire I opened all the intake vents and the temperature measured on the to grate got up to 335 very quickly and maintained that with one intake closed and the other two open 100%.
I threw on a couple of chickens to start breaking it in cooked them to 165 internal temp.
When the chickens were pulled all vents closed and the fire died.
Lots of charcoal left and I reused it for the second burn.

The second burn was the brisket cook described above and After the meat was pulled I wanted to see how long I could maintain 250ish so I let it run into the afternoon. After holding 240-266 for over 14 hours I opened the vents and achieved 286. Most of the charcoal was spent by this time.

If you are starting with a full fire ring I have no idea why it will not run hotter.
If you are starting with less fuel try starting with a full load and just choke the fire when you are done.
The leftover briquettes are still good to use for the next cook.

Oh yeah, I am using the standard Kingsford blue charcoal.

 

[Harbormaster]

I am a big fan of the WSM. Also a proponent of naturally aspirated WSMs. I think one needs to learn how a pit cooks without the aid of a controller. YMMV.

First, 225 is too low in my opinion. I only have 18.5s, but they really like to run between 250 and 275, so that's where they run. No water in the pan, no gadgets, no foil. I fill the charcoal ring with Royal Oak Chefs Select and chunks with fuel low in the center. I fill a chimney with ROCS, light it, and when all of the coals are ignited (and the chimney is about 2/3 full) I dump it and we are off to the races. Like Terry said, top vent open, and one lower vent open 1/2 to full and it will hold 250-275 all night.

Second, I used KBB in my Weber kettle before buying my first WSM. Never again. There are better fuels available. I know Weber recommends KBB for WSMs, but, frankly, they're wrong. I suggest the ROCS, another brand of all natural briquette, or lump.

Good luck. I hope you learn your WSM and learn to love it too.

 

[Mo-Dave]

I have read or heard that something like the stoker, or other such controllers don't work well with the use of water in the cooker. I don't know if that is true, just know I learned that somewhere.
Dave

 

[cmonaghan76]

I just ran my Maverick probes alongside my Stoker probes as I brought the temp up in an oven. I had just recently calibrated the Stoker probes in boiling water. The Maverick probes both read around 25 degrees lower than the Stoker probes - meaning that the past several years of thinking I was smoking at 225, I was more than likely at 250, not to mention the fact that the Smokenator ran hot anyway, making it difficult to keep it down around what I thought was 225. So...one good clue that reinforces the recommendation to run hotter than 225. I've more than likely been smoking in the 275 range.

 

[cmonaghan76]

Sorry, I do like my gadgets. It's been great to be able to run errands, even go to dinner, while monitoring the temps and adjusting parameters on my iPhone.

 

[THoey1963]

The first time I tried to use my IQ120, I had the Maverick in there too. They never registered the same. Have checked all the probes via boiling water and they are good. I was told that it was probably the algorithm the IQ uses. Now, when using the IQ sand the Maverick, I only use the Maverick to probe the meat.

Remember, this is BBQ, not Rocket Surgery. Relax. Let the smoker run where it likes and it will burn cleaner and more efficiently. Just adjust your time based on what temp she runs at. And remember, BBQ is done when it's done, not at a certain time...

 

[chashint]

Sorry, I do like my gadgets. It's been great to be able to run errands, even go to dinner, while monitoring the temps and adjusting parameters on my iPhone.

Nothing wrong with gadgets at all.
I like 'em myself.

 

[LTG]

Sorry, I do like my gadgets. It's been great to be able to run errands, even go to dinner, while monitoring the temps and adjusting parameters on my iPhone.

Your reliance on electronics is hindering your ability to learn the nuances of the WSM.

1. Get rid of the crap kbb. Royal oak lump or comparable is fine.
2. Cook at 275. 22.5s love 275 for some reason.
3. Run water pan empty, just foiled for easy cleanup.
4. Take the time to learn your cooker instead of relying on a atc. Especially when you are using a cooker that doesn't even need one. I have a guru literally sitting in the box in the garage. Why? Neither my WSM or drums need it.

As long as its not windy or I have a windblock set up, my 22.5 will roll for hours without adjustments.

 

[Blanton]

If you are going to run without water, I suggest getting a clay flower pot disk and foil it for the pan. Cook at 250-275 with the stoker.

For your 325 turkey cook, skip the stoker. Light a full chimney, then add another full chimney or chimney and a half amount of unlit to it. When all is going, start cooking. Should have a done bird in a few hours.