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Q-talk *ON TOPIC ONLY* QUALITY ON TOPIC discussion of Backyard BBQ, grilling, Equipment and just outdoor cookin' in general, hints, tips, tricks & techniques, success, failures... but stay on topic. And watch for that hijacking.


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Old 11-11-2010, 03:26 PM   #16
SmokinOkie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatioDaddio View Post
Not to be argumentative, but I disagree with you disagreeing with me.


John
Oh, I see how you're gonna be. Now we're gonna have a Brining Quick Draw to see who wins Two guys talking all science.

He's what I haven't been able to prove, I just don't have the equipment.

Take a enhanced bird, 8, 12, 15% and brine it in solution, but CHECK to see what the solution percentage is within the enhanced bird.

Denaturing not withstanding, not sure that matters in keeping the solution at it's current enhanced state. What's to prevent the solution IN the denatured proteins from seeking the lower osmotic state outside the bird.

So, now that everyone else's head is spinning.

We both agree it's okay to brine an enhanced bird.

And I agree with you, it is both Osmosis (the process) and Diffusion (the results).

Good stuff John.
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Old 11-11-2010, 03:37 PM   #17
bobsuosso
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With all this Osmosis and diffusion talk I feel like I'm watching an Alton Brown episode, just kiddin' guys, a lot of good info, nothing beats a 5 gal pail for brining turkeys
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Old 11-11-2010, 08:51 PM   #18
Hawg Father of Seoul
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Originally Posted by PatioDaddio View Post
Actually, it's both.

Diffusion is the what, and osmosis is the how.

Osmosis means the diffusion of certain molecules across the semipermeable
cell membranes (walls) in order to equalize the ion concentrations of either
side.

John
Okay, osmosis is the movement of water molecules. Diffusion is the movement of molecules, which can include water. Since the salt is the "moving" molecule........ Water follows salt, not the other way around. Your argument would make the water a vehicle to transport the salt.

BTW I hope your bird does not have cell walls, if it does .............. it must be tofurkey.

If I only knew this much about que. Teach me to que.

Last edited by Hawg Father of Seoul; 11-11-2010 at 09:01 PM.. Reason: Believe it or not this is less smartazz than the uneditted one.
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Old 11-11-2010, 08:58 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Hawg Father of Seoul View Post
Okay, osmosis is the movement of water molecules. Diffusion is the movement of molecules, which can include water. Since the salt it the "moving" molecule........

Now back to the homeostasis statement. Homeostasis requires an open or closed system acting upon it's environment. I would argue that the pile of dead tissue, the bird, is acted upon. Therefore such a state would be most aptly referred to as equilibrium.

BTW I hope your bird does not have cell walls, if it does .............. it must be tofurkey.

If I only knew this much about que. Teach me to que.
Yep, the cell boundary is more accurately termed "cell membrane", and
homeostasis in this case is better defined as "equilibrium".

Good points.

John
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Old 11-11-2010, 09:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawg Father of Seoul View Post
Okay, osmosis is the movement of water molecules. Diffusion is the movement of molecules, which can include water. Since the salt it the "moving" molecule........

Now back to the homeostasis statement. Homeostasis requires an open or closed system acting upon it's environment. I would argue that the pile of dead tissue, the bird, is acted upon. Therefore such a state would be most aptly referred to as equilibrium.

BTW I hope your bird does not have cell walls, if it does .............. it must be tofurkey.

If I only knew this much about que. Teach me to que.
Can someone provide a pH-pC diagram for Na for this? I am too old and lazy. I am thinking that I could alter the pH (vinegar or citrus) on this and affect the osmotic transfer of elements to achieve the desired equilibrium (pC=concentration) recommended by qualified brethren.

Well, in case we never get there scientifically, a little sugar would not hurt a darn thing by letting it get in the pores/fibers/proteins by whatever substance or mechanism is responsible for this.
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Old 11-11-2010, 09:17 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
Brine or not! Mom's turkey is D-R-Y! She has a thing for burnt offerings!
But please don't tell her I said so. I've offered to grill, or smoke, or fry the turkey for years. No luck.
Let me guess... beef, pork, and chicken are always clear and free of juice. Mom always wins! Glad to be raised in the era of good refrigeration, science, and "properly" cooked meats.
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:47 AM   #22
mobow
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For a brining container go to your local Dairy Queen and ask them for a pickle bucket. They will usually let you have them for $1.00. keith
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:19 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by SmokinOkie View Post
I've been working on a Brining 202 (basically advanced brining). I'm with Patio on this one for the most part, but I don't agree it has to be a "light" brine.

I think the myth most people believe is that if you brine an enhance bird you'll add salt.

Brining doesn't work that way. It worked to equilize the % in the bird with the
% in the brine. Osmosis is how it works. It exchanges liquid in the brine with the liquid in the bird.

You could actually take an enhanced bird (say a 20% bird) and put it in a light solution and some of the bird would try to equalize to the liquid outside thus reducing the original percentage.

It won't "add" to an already enhanced bird unless your solution is saltier than the % enhanced.

Basically for the 8, 12, 15% enhanced bird a normal brine will work just as advertised. I don't think you have to go "light" on the salt at all. Unless your normal brine is not very salty. Over about 15% then the brine isn't very effective.

But NO ONE buys a 20% enhanced bird anymore, right?

Russ
Author Brining 101
Russ your Brining 101 is a benchmark in brining circles. I'll be anxiously awaiting the release of Brining 202.

Will there be any mention of injecting of brines? I've been getting fonder of that technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan in Ga View Post
We brine all our birds enhanced or not with the same ratio and have never had a problem. just saying
I've noticed a slightly saltier product from brand to brand of enhanced birds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatioDaddio View Post
Not to be argumentative, but I disagree with you disagreeing with me.

... (clipped for space conservation) but since there was more (salt) to start with, more is there in then end.

So, I maintain that if you start with an "enhanced" bird and you brine with
a standard brine, you will necessarily add salt.

Not convinced? Here's what Cook's Illustrated found in their testing

Sodium levels by weight
Fresh - Brined for 4 hours (1 cup table salt per gallon): 0.22%
Fresh - Brined for 12 hours (1/2 cup table salt per gallon): 0.21%
Unbrined enhanced frozen: 0.27%
Brined enhanced frozen: 0.34%
Frozen kosher turkey: 0.16%

Just more food for thought (pun intended).

John
I've been playing with a lite brine (and some of my experiments have been posted here), so this is a valuable discussion. This is the first I have seen of the Cooks Illustrated information, thanks for sharing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokinOkie View Post
Oh, I see how you're gonna be. Now we're gonna have a Brining Quick Draw to see who wins Two guys talking all science.

He's what I haven't been able to prove, I just don't have the equipment.

Take a enhanced bird, 8, 12, 15% and brine it in solution, but CHECK to see what the solution percentage is within the enhanced bird.

Denaturing not withstanding, not sure that matters in keeping the solution at it's current enhanced state. What's to prevent the solution IN the denatured proteins from seeking the lower osmotic state outside the bird.

So, now that everyone else's head is spinning.

We both agree it's okay to brine an enhanced bird.

And I agree with you, it is both Osmosis (the process) and Diffusion (the results).

Good stuff John.
Question for both of you guys, i have always assumed that dark meat and white meat takes a brine a little differently.... am I off base on this?
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:25 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by thirdeye View Post
Question for both of you guys, i have always assumed that dark meat and white meat takes a brine a little differently.... am I off base on this?
Since the make up of dark (or more accurately "red" from the extra
myoglobin) meat is different, I would think that they'd have to react
differently to brining. I don't know how they react differently from a
chemistry point of view, but to me the effects of brining are much more
evident in white meat than in dark.

John
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:14 PM   #25
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All of this is giving me a headach
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:45 PM   #26
SmokinOkie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jestridge View Post
All of this is giving me a headach
Me too

Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye View Post
Russ your Brining 101 is a benchmark in brining circles. I'll be anxiously awaiting the release of Brining 202.

Will there be any mention of injecting of brines? I've been getting fonder of that technique.

I've noticed a slightly saltier product from brand to brand of enhanced birds.

Question for both of you guys, i have always assumed that dark meat and white meat takes a brine a little differently.... am I off base on this?
Actually a great question on injecting brines. Yup, I inject my PB's with a brine and scored real well when I did them. Key is to let it sit a while because that injected brine has to defuse somewhat.

Agree on the "enhanced birds" I think there is a definite flavor profile that varies with the various brands, just a chemical thing I expect.

I mention in 101 that very thing that dark and light take on different times. Hadn't thought about it that far, but the myglobin is a culprit. I think the protein itself in that part of the birds (dark) is different and actually more dense. I always recommend brining darker longer than white.

have a Great Thanksgiving!

Russ
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