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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 10-21-2010, 10:56 AM   #1
bearnakedbbq
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Default Need help understanding the concept of judging.

Need some help understanding the concept of judging?

I am currently planning a BBQ event for June and I suggested that we have the same (6) judges score the Brisket, then another (6) judges the Ribs etc….. This would mean I would have to have (24) total judges to do the main four categories.

I am a new member of the Alaska BBQ Association, Yes we BBQ in Alaska! Had a meeting the other night (via phone). My proposal was rejected for the main for categories since it didn’t follow the ABA rules, and it would require too many judges. They also mentioned that they try to have 1 judge per competition team.

So let’s say I have 24 teams enter my contest, wouldn’t we need 24 judges? If my math is correct 24 judges = 24 judges.

Our judges are not going to be certified judges like you use in the lower 48. I would say that 95+% of these judges this will be their first time judging and the only experience they will have is by attending a short class that is offered before the event.

I would agree that my suggestion would not work on most the lower 48 events, but for events with less than 24 it would.

In my scenario, each judge will have to sample and score 24 entries, what they score is the question. Do they score 24 ribs, or do they score 6 ribs, 6 chickens, 6 briskets and 6 pork butts?


Question:
  • Would it not be easier for these new judges to focus on one category than have to tackle all four meats?
  • Would the scoring results reflect a truer sense on the real winner since these judges would have tasted and scored 100% of the “say Ribs” compared to 25%?
  • I don’t see why this would not work for event with less than 24 teams, what am I missing?
  • If this is truly the best way to determine a winner, why do other events that uses judges like gymnastics, figure skating, cheerleading, boxing, or beauty pageants us these style of judging?
  • Can anyone else come up with a judging event where you are being scored by different judges to determine the overall winner?
I am new to the whole BBQ sport but this one has me puzzled please explain why this would not work for smaller events.


troy
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Unread 10-21-2010, 11:31 AM   #2
Brew-B-Q
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I think it would be easier to focus on one meat, especially for new judges. However, I would not want to be the 23rd piece of chicken they taste for example. Nor would I want to eat 24 bites of the same type of meat.
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Unread 10-21-2010, 11:48 AM   #3
bearnakedbbq
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To make it fair, like you said you wouldn't want to be the 23rd team, you would have to have (2) turn-in times. For example 1400 and 1430 and it would be a random draw on which one you get. Your times would be known before the event so you can plan.

This might help!
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Unread 10-21-2010, 11:54 AM   #4
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The best way to do it is to have the same number of judges per number of teams. Each judge will sample each meat. if you have 24 teams you would have 4 judging tables of 6 judges each, each one would sample 6 teams meats. just make sure that the teams boxes get turned in to different tables for each meat. They are judging each sample for its own quality, not against each of the other five, so the need to focus is on each piece of meat. believe me, no one wants to eat 24 samples of one type of meat. good luck


Quote:
Originally Posted by bearnakedbbq View Post
Need some help understanding the concept of judging?

I am currently planning a BBQ event for June and I suggested that we have the same (6) judges score the Brisket, then another (6) judges the Ribs etc….. This would mean I would have to have (24) total judges to do the main four categories.

I am a new member of the Alaska BBQ Association, Yes we BBQ in Alaska! Had a meeting the other night (via phone). My proposal was rejected for the main for categories since it didn’t follow the ABA rules, and it would require too many judges. They also mentioned that they try to have 1 judge per competition team.

So let’s say I have 24 teams enter my contest, wouldn’t we need 24 judges? If my math is correct 24 judges = 24 judges.

Our judges are not going to be certified judges like you use in the lower 48. I would say that 95+% of these judges this will be their first time judging and the only experience they will have is by attending a short class that is offered before the event.

I would agree that my suggestion would not work on most the lower 48 events, but for events with less than 24 it would.

In my scenario, each judge will have to sample and score 24 entries, what they score is the question. Do they score 24 ribs, or do they score 6 ribs, 6 chickens, 6 briskets and 6 pork butts?



Question:
  • Would it not be easier for these new judges to focus on one category than have to tackle all four meats?
  • Would the scoring results reflect a truer sense on the real winner since these judges would have tasted and scored 100% of the “say Ribs” compared to 25%?
  • I don’t see why this would not work for event with less than 24 teams, what am I missing?
  • If this is truly the best way to determine a winner, why do other events that uses judges like gymnastics, figure skating, cheerleading, boxing, or beauty pageants us these style of judging?
  • Can anyone else come up with a judging event where you are being scored by different judges to determine the overall winner?
I am new to the whole BBQ sport but this one has me puzzled please explain why this would not work for smaller events.


troy
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Unread 10-21-2010, 02:55 PM   #5
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Just a thought, after you have determined how many judges you need you may want to have a judging class prior to the actual judging or perhaps if you can gather the judges a week or so prior to the contest and give them the rules that your association has or use another associations rules as a guide line. At least this way the judges should be on the same page or at least close to it.
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Unread 10-21-2010, 07:39 PM   #6
bearnakedbbq
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Yes we are planning on having classes for these judges, if they don't attend the class then they do get to judge.


I still don't understand how people like to be judged by different judges, I guess it just the way it is. I just wonder what the ranking order would be if they had another cook off between the top 10 teams. I am sure if they where scored by the same judges #10 maybe be #1.

Another question. Can one team cook for two teams. I would like to enter my wife as a team. I would pay the fees etc... but when I plate the food I would make two boxes. Having your food scored by two different tables would be the true test. If you get a 3rd place and a 16th using the same meat then you know it isn't about the product you turnned in but it is more about being lucky to have found a table that score higher than the other. Anybody do this?

Have there been contests where all the winners where from the same judging table? Does someone keep track of this? If this occurs what happens?

I guess this is just one of those things you just live with. I have alot to learn and I do have plans on going to (3) BBQ classes, the judging class and TC class this winter do help jump start my knowledge.

I am learning so much just being on this site. Heck I am on this more than Ebay and Craigslist!!!! Love BBQ and love your site.

troy
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Unread 10-21-2010, 08:15 PM   #7
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I think having 1 person judge 24 samples of the same food is asking a lot. By the time you get to team 24, the meat isn't going to score worth a darn compared to team 1.

Have each judge score 6 entries of each category. It's going to be more fair for everyone, including the judges.
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Unread 10-21-2010, 10:00 PM   #8
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Agree with watertowerbbq, judging too much of one thing isn't good, not when it comes to food anyway.

"Can one team cook for two teams?"

My understanding is that this is not allowed. It's not fair to the other teams.
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Unread 10-22-2010, 09:24 AM   #9
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i agree it would not be fair but it would be a great test. If the same meat received vastly different scores from two different tables it would force us to look at the judging system
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Unread 10-22-2010, 09:37 AM   #10
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Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, you might look at IBCA rules, they sound perfect for your comp...
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Unread 10-22-2010, 10:08 AM   #11
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I can speak to the KCBS concepts regarding judging.

First off, each sample is to be judged on its own merits and not compared to the other five samples on the judge's plate. KCBS judges are looking for an 'ideal' piece of BBQ, given the style presented. This makes it possible to judge all regional styles of BBQ fairly. (At least that's the theory.) This also means that you can have more than one perfect score in each set of samples. Without 'trained' judges, you're simply going to have people scoring on what they prefer . . . and they will be comparing one sample against the other entries, not against an ideal . . . KCBS trained judges are supposed to compare the samples objectively and then determine subjectively if they think they like the sample, based on the objective measurements. It's not perfect, but it's better than 100% emotional, subjective opinions.

Secondly, KCBS rule of thumb is one judge per team entered. That's not exact every time, but that's why it's called a 'rule of thumb'. It helps determine the approximate number of judges you need. Each judge gets six samples of each of the four categories. Yes, 24 samples is a lot, but we are not eating ALL of each sample. We are simply taking a good, decent bite out of each one.

Next, since KCBS judging is 'double-blind' it's not easily determined which table judged which samples. Only the official KCBS representatives can easily determine that - and they aren't about to make those details public knowledge. So, it could very well be that a 'high-scoring' table would produce winners in more than one category - but that's just a guess. No way to easily know for sure. I think this must have been a problem at some point because judge's scores are now being tracked (as of October 12th). Those judges who score consistently outside of the other judges at their tables will now be retrained as needed.

Also, Jeff's comment about not reinventing the wheel is excellent. There are plenty of formats for judging that already exist out there - pick one and use it.

I hope this helps!
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Unread 10-22-2010, 10:22 AM   #12
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Per KCBS rules, 24 teams equals 24 judges plus 4 table captains ( 1 captain for each
of 4 tables of 6 ). Making sure that each class of entry is judged by a different table is
the most fair to the team that makes the entry, to the rest of the teams, and to the judges. If one, two, or three of the judges at one table are inconsistent in scoring or
consistently high or low in the scoring it is either a competitive advantage or disadvantage to that team and to all the other teams.
Judge tasting fatigue will also skew results.
Previous posts have already stated that entries are not compared to each other,
they are individually judged against the standard for that class as set by the organization sanctioning the contest. Judges need to be trained in those standards
before they judge. It is not what you like, it is how does this entry compare to the
standard.
As a CBJ and a judge chair for a contest, this is the way I like to judge and is the
way that I am happy that the teams entering our contest are judged. Good luck with your contest.
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Unread 10-23-2010, 07:23 AM   #13
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KCBS does a good job mixing things up. I wouldnt want the same Judge EVER. There are a few Judges who think that it is their job to find something wrong with any entry. My luck would be that I would get that one.
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