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Unread 09-15-2010, 03:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_T_BBQ View Post
To build on what bluetang wrote, almost all soy in the US is GMO, produced by monsanto, and doused in round-up while it's growing. All 3 are things I try to avoid.
MONSANTO is the antichrist to the farming industry. Been following their misdeeds for several years now. in INdia over 10,000 farmers have committed suicide due to going into debt for Monsanto(hence to be Monsatan) GMO products. Evil evil evil. Never mind the havoc that has been played out in the US.
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Unread 09-15-2010, 03:49 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_T_BBQ View Post
To build on what bluetang wrote, almost all soy in the US is GMO, produced by monsanto, and doused in round-up while it's growing. All 3 are things I try to avoid.
World wide its about 95% GMO...
Corn and cotton are right on its heels.

Not to be blasphemous, but I would consider the anti christ to be a decent fellow when compared to monsantos demonic deeds through the years.
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Unread 09-15-2010, 04:10 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by KnucklHed BBQ View Post
World wide its about 95% GMO...
Corn and cotton are right on its heels.

Not to be blasphemous, but I would consider the anti christ to be a decent fellow when compared to monsantos demonic deeds through the years.
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Unread 09-15-2010, 04:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnucklHed BBQ View Post
World wide its about 95% GMO...
Corn and cotton are right on its heels.

Not to be blasphemous, but I would consider the anti christ to be a decent fellow when compared to monsantos demonic deeds through the years.
Not taken as blasphemous at all. I have just become more aware of the Monsanto and the GMO chaos in the past few years. It is mind boggling what they have done and continue to do. As a result, for the first time this year I tried to grow some one my own tomatoes and veggies, heirloom styles, and been shopping at farmers markets.. and will continue to do so.
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Unread 09-15-2010, 04:17 PM   #20
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For my 2 cents, I'll add, "if you have to read a label to know what's in it, maybe maybe you just shouldn't eat it." now THAT would be eating smartly!

It would mean some extra work in terms of food buying and prep, but it would eliminate a lot of anxiety every time a new study come out.

Not that I eat smartly or anything, just sayin'...it just seems like every day I hear about a new thing that's not good for me!
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Unread 09-15-2010, 05:03 PM   #21
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I don't want to get into yet another battle of truths or untruths, but before we start pulling numbers and random facts out of the air, I'd like to point out that while I am no fan of some things Monsanto has done over the years, I personally worked quite hard for some time to help farmers get the best out of their GM crops (soybean, corn, cotton, and Canola), and I don't appreciate being referred to as the anti-christ for that association.

If you're going to mention the thousands of Indian farmers who have supposedly committed suicide, please cite a reference. If you're going to talk about the bad things that GMO or Roundup has done, come out and speak truths or don't speak at all. Glyphosate has been proven to be quite harmless. Most of all, please keep in mind that you are saying things about your fellow brethren.

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Unread 09-15-2010, 05:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmprantz View Post
I don't want to get into yet another battle of truths or untruths, but before we start pulling numbers and random facts out of the air, I'd like to point out that while I am no fan of some things Monsanto has done over the years, I personally worked quite hard for some time to help farmers get the best out of their GM crops (soybean, corn, cotton, and Canola), and I don't appreciate being referred to as the anti-christ for that association.

If you're going to mention the thousands of Indian farmers who have supposedly committed suicide, please cite a reference. If you're going to talk about the bad things that GMO or Roundup has done, come out and speak truths or don't speak at all. Glyphosate has been proven to be quite harmless. Most of all, please keep in mind that you are saying things about your fellow brethren.

dmp
dmp, good people work for evil companies all the time, in fact that's how the company prefers it, it makes them appear to be legitimate. Refering to the company as evil does not imply that the good person working there is bad as well.

As for links, I'm sure you can find others, but let's start off with wiki: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmers'_suicides_in_India?wasRedirected=true

Wiki largely negates monsantos role in the suicides, but with a little digging you'll find their guilt.
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Unread 09-15-2010, 08:09 PM   #23
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it's cheaper than adding steak? that's my guess.
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Unread 09-16-2010, 10:54 AM   #24
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if it is not the aforementioned evil soy, it could be used as an anti-clumping/caking agent
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Unread 09-16-2010, 01:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmprantz View Post
I don't want to get into yet another battle of truths or untruths, but before we start pulling numbers and random facts out of the air, I'd like to point out that while I am no fan of some things Monsanto has done over the years, I personally worked quite hard for some time to help farmers get the best out of their GM crops (soybean, corn, cotton, and Canola), and I don't appreciate being referred to as the anti-christ for that association.

If you're going to mention the thousands of Indian farmers who have supposedly committed suicide, please cite a reference. If you're going to talk about the bad things that GMO or Roundup has done, come out and speak truths or don't speak at all. Glyphosate has been proven to be quite harmless. Most of all, please keep in mind that you are saying things about your fellow brethren.

dmp

Hi DMP,

Thanks for throwing a different voice into this conversation. I was the original poster of this thread, and as usual... one has no idea where a thread will go when it starts. But most often, there is truth to learn and facts revealed. Albeit, not all of the truths and facts are pretty or positive.. as in this case.

As for your reference(s) request, there are literally hundreds out there. Citing them goes beyond the original scope of this thread, but since you asked I will cite a few. Also, when I posted the 10,000 number, I PURPOSEFULLY left out a zero. Thanks for asking for reference, as now I can share more of the truth.

There is NO "Supposedly" about the suicides. It is FACTUAL data at this point, sadly. And far as being deemed "quite harmless," there are other measures of "harm" that is not measured by a laboratory. Nor does the USDA get everything right. Never mind corporate lobbyist who are paid to swing decisions and garner influence.

The actual number is over 100,000 farmers who have suicided, most of them by drinking the very pesticides that they went into debt to buy to protect the GMO crops that cost them almost twice as much as non GMO crops.


Also the farmers who buy the GMO crops, HERE IN THE USA AND ABROAD are expected to pay for the GMO crops every year, and it is illegal for them to use their own seed. Monsanto has their own detective division who spies on farmers here in the US, and a legal division whose job it is to strong arm, sue and bring legal issues to the stated farmers. If you or ANYONE has never watched FOOD INC., that would be an indisputable eye opener in this topic of conversation. It is not a "stand all" testimony by any means, but it sheds enough light and truth to make one need to sit down and take a breath of air.



Below are 4 points referenced from the UN itself
More than 100,000 Indian farmers have taken their lives since 1997.

86.5 percent of farmers who took their own lives were financially indebted

Their average debt was about $835.

On average, there has been one farmer’s suicide every 32 minutes since 2002.

The UN reference: http://www.un.org/esa/sustdev/csd/cs...ers_relief.pdf

For more requested references.. here is the google search citing over 30,000 hits.
The topic search was... 100,000 indian farmers commit suicide
http://www.google.com/search?q=100%2...401a08be548634

Another Quote about India: Since GM seeds are patented by Monsanto, their repeated use each year requires constant licensing fees that keep farmers impoverished. One bad yield due to drought or other reasons, plunges farmers so deep into debt that they resort to suicide. One study estimates that 150,000 farmers have killed themselves in the past ten years.”

For something more at home in the USA... http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-suicides.aspx
"Meanwhile, in the U.S., District Judge Jeffrey White, a federal judge in California, has banned the planting of genetically modified Roundup Ready sugar beets created by Monsanto. The beets are engineered to withstand Monsanto’s Roundup weed killer.
White said he was “troubled by maintaining the status quo that consists of 95 percent of sugar beets being genetically engineered while [the USDA] conducts the environmental review that should have occurred before the sugar beets were deregulated.”
The ban does not affect crops already planted and harvested for sugar.
The St. Louis Business Journal reports:
“Environmental groups ... filed suit in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California in January 2008 to challenge the deregulation of Roundup Ready sugar beets by the USDA ... Opponents say the beets promote superweeds, weeds that cannot easily be killed because they have developed a tolerance to weed killer. They also raise concerns about the contamination of conventional and organic crops.”


As Ryan stated above, good people do work for bad corporations. I will also add the advancement of science is not always used for good, and that the proprietors and originators of the knowledge at times have very little control over how it is used. Which includes, politics and corporate greed.

I wish not to enter a flame war with you, but I nor anyone else in the above refer to you as the "anti christ for association." I also did not infer anything about a fellow Brethren, I stated factual data and a personal opinion about a corporation and agricultural genetic modifying science. An opinion that is mirrored by thousands of others.


I personally apologize to you specifically if my comment offended you, but please understand that I do not apologize for knowing and sharing truth.





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Unread 09-16-2010, 02:44 PM   #26
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Some times in my life, I get bored at work and I find myself with plenty of time to get involved in long discussions on line. Right now is not really one of those times, and even if it were, I end up getting more emotionally attached to a topic than I should. It takes a toll on me, and it affects the way I am perceived. While perception by others is not anywhere near the top of my list of concerns, I do try to be aware of it.

All that is to prelude my statement that I will not get into a long, drawn out discussion on this topic, regardless of who is right. I just have neither the time nor the energy to do so, and I don't think it's in the best interest of any one involved. The fact that I am not going to argue this point does not mean that I think it's okay to demonize Monsanto, glyphosate, RR GMO crops, or anything associated with them, as I do take some offense when the work I do characterized that way. As I said before, keep in mind that a brethren was associated with those things and you are talking about him when you talk about Monsanto.

I don't have the time for this to become a 17 page topic with half contributions coming from me, but I did do a quick Google search (indian farmer suicides monsanto), which lead me a wikipedia article (Monsanto) which has the following to say about the issue:

Quote:
More than 4,500 farmers have committed suicide, which some claim is mostly due to mounting debt caused by the poor yields, increased need for pesticides, and the higher cost of the Bt cotton seed sold by Monsanto.[91][92][93][94] A report released by the International Food Policy Research Institute in October 2008 provided evidence that the cause of farmer suicide in India was due to several causes and that the introduction of Bt cotton was not a major factor.[95] It argues that the suicides predate the introduction of the cotton in 2002 and has been fairly consistent since 1997.[95][96] Other studies also suggest the increase in farmer suicides is due to a combination of various socio-economic factors.[97] These include debt, the difficulty of farming semi-arid regions, poor agricultural income, absence of alternative income opportunities, the downturn in the urban economy forcing non-farmers into farming and the absence of suitable counseling services.[97][98]
I will also say that IP law is frustrating in many ways, and laws giving an innovator a means to protect his investment are not unique to farming. Understand patents, copyrights, and trademarks. Look at the pharma and entertainment industries. Use a computer. I am not saying that any of these are right or wrong, but to say that one industry is not allowed to protect its IP seems....flawed....to me.

Regardless, I am not posting this to get the last word and run away. I am not trying to argue the point. My goal here is to remind any one reading this thread after this post that there are many "facts" and "truths" in the world, and just because one person swears up and down, doesn't make it so. While one person claims that 10,000, no 100,000 farmers are dead, another source says it's 4,700, and the cuases is not so certain. Again, I'm not saying any number is right or wrong, but don't trust blindly, and don't be too quick to condemn.

Thank you. Enjoy your BBQ. Use whatever rub you want, with or without soy.

dmp

My goal in posting this is not
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Unread 09-16-2010, 03:09 PM   #27
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My friend, if you read the whole wiki article, you will see that the 4,500 suicides is not a total, many individual provinces of india have that many every year, the link to the UN's #'s that brian gave, should make that clear.

As a comment on a companys right to protect its IP, I fully agree, my problem with big M's position is that they lobbied the Indian gov to out law all other types of cotton, forcing the farmers to buy the monsanto seeds at a much higher cost, and every year. This is a greedy monopolistic business practice to eliminate all competition.

Personally, I have not been quick to judge. My knowledge of monsanto comes from many hours of research and digging thru M's own internal memos that have been leaked or released over the years.

I would ask you not to be too quick to defend.

As a brother, I mean no offense in my statements about monsanto to you personally, I merely ask that you take the time to objectively research the topic to better understand why a person would take such a hard lined stance against monsanto.
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Unread 09-16-2010, 06:37 PM   #28
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Douced in round-up? Round-up is the least of your worries then. You don't have a clue. Basic soy additives are just a soy-water mix (and have no msg in them) added as a stiffener or binder in many commercial products. You eat soy products everyday and don't even know it. If it wasn't for Round-up (one of the safest and most widely used among U.S. farmers), your field to table products would be so out of priced that you would be eating bolagna and cheap white bread every day. Used properly, Round-up is a fuel saver, time saver and disapates within 30 days. It is a post emrgent herdicide that does not bond to the soil, therefore , it does its jod and disappears. Please don't take this as a personal attack, but inform yourself before you make a blatent and uninformed statement like 'DOUSED".
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Unread 09-16-2010, 06:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garyclaw View Post
Douced in round-up? Round-up is the least of your worries then. You don't have a clue. Basic soy additives are just a soy-water mix (and have no msg in them) added as a stiffener or binder in many commercial products. You eat soy products everyday and don't even know it. If it wasn't for Round-up (one of the safest and most widely used among U.S. farmers), your field to table products would be so out of priced that you would be eating bolagna and cheap white bread every day. Used properly, Round-up is a fuel saver, time saver and disapates within 30 days. It is a post emrgent herdicide that does not bond to the soil, therefore , it does its jod and disappears. Please don't take this as a personal attack, but inform yourself before you make a blatent and uninformed statement like 'DOUSED".
Please do not take this as a personal attack either, but you do know that they are no longer able to use the word biodegradable anymore in the US and other countries? Why? Well simply put... because it is not. Testing shows it is not gone in 30 days. They were sued no less than by
a country and New York's Attorney General. I think his statement is quite grounded and informed.

New York Attorney General Lawsuit http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/M...-AGNYnov96.htm

Attorney General of the State of New York.
Consumer Frauds and Protection Bureau.
Environmental Protection Bureau.


In the matter of Monsanto Company, respondent.
Assurance of discontinuance pursuant to executive law § 63(15).
New York, NY,

Here are a couple of excerpts from the lawsuit:
Q. Monsanto's absolute claims that Roundup "will not wash or leach in the soil" is not accurate because glyphosate, the active ingredient, may move through some types of soil under some conditions after application, in particular, soil particles with glyphosate bound to them can "wash" through or over soils.
R. Monsanto's absolute claim that its Accord (and Roundup) herbicide "stays where you put it" is not accurate for the same reasons set forth in paragraph Q above.
S. Monsanto's claims contradict the following statements required on the EPA-approved label for Roundup at the time the claims were made:
ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
Avoid direct application to any body of water. Do not contaminate water by disposal of waste or cleaning of equipment.
AVOID DRIFT, EXTREME CARE MUST BE USED WHEN APPLYING THIS PRODUCT TO PREVENT INJURY TO DESIRABLE PLANTS AND CROPS.
Do not allow the herbicide solution to mist, drip, drift, or splash onto desirable vegetation since minute quantities of this herbicide can cause severe damage or destruction to the crop, plants, or other areas on which treatment was not intended.
http://www.holisticmed.com/ge/roundup.html

France Finds Monsanto Guilty of Lying
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-of-lying.aspx

This page has hundreds of both legal and non legal incidences
http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/M...Glyphosate.htm


To all Brethren, Sorry this thread has moved so far away from the original intent, though I am not sorry for the truth shared.
This will be my last post on the Monsanto subject for this thread. The facts and truth are there in the links if anyone wishes to
pursue their knowledge base on a very serious set of ethics and and questions that affect you at much deeper levels than many know.
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Unread 09-16-2010, 11:34 PM   #30
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Thank you so much for being the great hunter and provider of truths and facts. If it's on wiki, it must be a truth. Right?
Heck! If it's on the internet, it's got to be gospel!
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