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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 08-17-2010, 12:56 PM   #46
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Rule 7 of the 2010 KCBS Rules and Regulation:

No pre‐seasoned meat is allowed other than manufacturer enhanced or injected
products, as shown on label EXCLUDING but not limited to:teriyaki, lemon pepper or butter injected.

This sums it up right there and all judges should immediately be aware of what enhanced and injected products will be in the competition. If they can't read and understand the rules the competitors are following they have chosen to be ignorant. If one is allergic to certain ingredients they have also chosen to play Russian roulette. These topics always raise a can of worms since you can get into the minutest details. Should I serve organic meat? Grass fed and finished since it's better for the animal and will provide the judge more omega 3's? Should I serve a chicken that has been rinsed with chlorinated water? Should I ensure my bbq doesn't get charred so that I don't create an excess of oxidized fats?
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Unread 08-17-2010, 01:15 PM   #47
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I guess my take.. is that as long as everything you are injecting, rubbing, or slathering on your entry is USDA/FDA approved, then there is simply no issue.
If a judge has any known food allergies/issues, then (as stated before) best to get another hobby.

If I'm injecting with Butchers, rubbing with Smoking Guns, saucing with Blues Hog, and buying USDA approved meat, then it's all golden in my book.

Now.. if you're injecting with a little rubbing alcohol becasue you like the little kick it gives... well then we've got an issue.
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Unread 08-17-2010, 01:26 PM   #48
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There is so much mis-information out there, that this subject is very difficult to discuss.

My father was a food technologist, and member of the IFT for the better part of four decades, and the "chemicals" that are being discussed here are simply part of my standard spice rack.

Most people talking about chemicals are concerned about side effects, I think, and even here, the placebo effect outweighs anything the FDA has to say about these things. Some people will swear on a stack of bibles that they are allergic to something. Are they? Is it real, like peanut allergies, or is it placebo? Are they really allergic to gluten, but they blame cilantro? Hard to say, definitely. Folks believe what they believe, and no evidence to the contrary will convince them. They may be right, after all. I'm not going to try and dismiss anybody's concerns.

However, I see a lot of common ingredients being bashed for no good reason, simply because people are afraid of what they don't understand. Mono-sodium glutamate looks scary, and so does mono-sodium chloride, yet people wouldn't think of cooking without the one, and they have conspiracy theories about the other.

For those that didn't get it, mono-sodium chloride is salt. It contains both sodium and chlorine. Chlorine is a deadly gas, and sodium explodes in water, but you can't live without them when they're bonded, and it tastes great. Who here cooks without salt? Consume too much, though, and it will kill you, and I'm not just talking about the risk of heart attack and stroke. Drink six ounces of salt in a glass of water and tell me how you feel. Heck, some judges are probably on low-sodium diets, but is anybody suggesting that comps ban the use of salt? It's the same with any chemical.

Phosphates are found naturally in all living tissue. So are glutamates. I could go on and on.

If it's the "spirit of BBQ" that you're interested in preserving, then why not ban pellet cookers, or green eggs? Both of them could be considered "cheating", because they're not what was used 100 years ago. Let's not even talk about "pit computers" and fans that regulate temperature! Should all of those be banned?

Like anything, too much of any ingredient is probably harmful. Too much fat will kill you from a heart attack. Sugar can kill diabetics. BBQ isn't health food.

Regarding MSG, it can actually LOWER the amount of sodium that you're taking in, because ounce for ounce, it has half the sodium of salt, and it's a stronger flavor enhancer to boot. Sodium inosinate and sodium guanylate are 100 times more powerful than salt. Sodium phosphates simply replace what was in the meat and has degraded. The fresher the meat, the more natural phosphates it contains. When you add it after the fact, you're pretty much replacing what was already there. Glutamates are in almost all proteins.

I'm not a chemist, but I do know a little about these things, so if you have any concerns, I might be able to point you in the right direction and sway you away from the conspiracy theorists. I think that education is the key in the whole "chemical" discussion, and I'd be happy to lend what I know to the groups.

As for my opinion, I'd like to see a separate category for "traditional barbecue". In that competition, you can't use computers or charcoal. No lighter fluid, only matches to start your fire and no pellets. You can't use a metal cooker, and the same meat is provided to every entrant to ensure consistency. Rubs have to be made on site and inspected with only selected ingredients from an on-site pantry. Now THAT would be interesting!
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Unread 08-17-2010, 01:39 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DivaHerself View Post
There is a difference in basic expectation.

Consumers have a reasonable expectation that manufacturers and restaurants are required by law to disclose ingredients upon request. And in spite of this, we all know that offending ingredients are hidden by legal loopholes under such monikers as "spice", "hydrolyzed yeast extract", "flavorings" ad infinitum to protect proprietary monkeyings with said food products. Consumers also have a reasonable expectation that if they are to take personal responsibility to avoid offending ingredients, they do not order or consume them unless they absolutely know what's in them.

Judges have a reasonable expectation that they are judging food products from teams that have invested a considerable amount of effort in developing flavor profiles that they are NOT going to disclose. Personal responsibility then dictates that if a judge wishes to avoid possible sensitizers from unknown food products, they should avoid exposure.

So in its essence, the issue is not really about injecting. Offending sensitizers can be dusted or misted on, or applied in any number of ways. The issue is that these products are used in BBQ, and one can choose to avoid exposure or not. It's not like the little kid that has to have all peanut products banned from his classroom because he can't assess risk -- judges are adults who are well aware of the milieu in which they judge, and it would be utterly disingenuous for one to claim that they were shocked and unaware that MSG or phosphates might be in the food products they judge.
Agreed, but it still begs the question, do all judges in all sanctioned contests know or have available to them information about what cookers are likely to use in the preparation of their meat. I'm thinking that perhaps a Certified KCBS judge might be aware or a judge that's an experienced cook but how about the rest of them. Or the folks that participate in peoples choice events. Do we owe anyone a heads up?
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Unread 08-17-2010, 02:21 PM   #50
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Nope.. none required.

Most folks don't even know what the additives really are. You tell them your injecting with Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein or Textured Soy Protein and they'll think you are poisoning them.. when in fact, the red meat you're injecting will kill them long before the soy will.

Same folks that are afraid of MSG will think nothing of downing a Diet Coke.
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Unread 08-17-2010, 03:39 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZILLA View Post
Agreed, but it still begs the question, do all judges in all sanctioned contests know or have available to them information about what cookers are likely to use in the preparation of their meat. I'm thinking that perhaps a Certified KCBS judge might be aware or a judge that's an experienced cook but how about the rest of them. Or the folks that participate in peoples choice events. Do we owe anyone a heads up?
Simple answer, No.

What ever happened to personal responsibility?

Who is responsible for what a person puts in their mouth?
That person and ONLY that person.
No one is forcing them to eat it.

If a person is concerned about a particular ingredient in their food or the manner in which it is prepared, they have a responsibility to themselves to inquire about it.

If the information that they seek is not available, they have 2 choices.

Eat it.

or

Don't eat it.

If they choose to eat it, they have ventured forth with the knowledge that the information they were seeking was not available and have assumed sole responsiblity for their actions.

It's really just that simple.
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Unread 08-17-2010, 03:44 PM   #52
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If I were to come in here and tell you all that a California people's choice event had been required to post notice that the following list of FDA-approved food chemicals may or may not have been added to some food products, you'd wet your pants laughing.

Better yet: the last time you went to the county fair and bought a corn dog or funnel cake, was a full list of ingredients or allergen advisories posted?
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Unread 08-17-2010, 04:42 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P01Shooter View Post
Rule 7 of the 2010 KCBS Rules and Regulation:

No pre‐seasoned meat is allowed other than manufacturer enhanced or injected
products, as shown on label EXCLUDING but not limited to:teriyaki, lemon pepper or butter injected.

This sums it up right there and all judges should immediately be aware of what enhanced and injected products will be in the competition. If they can't read and understand the rules the competitors are following they have chosen to be ignorant. If one is allergic to certain ingredients they have also chosen to play Russian roulette. These topics always raise a can of worms since you can get into the minutest details. Should I serve organic meat? Grass fed and finished since it's better for the animal and will provide the judge more omega 3's? Should I serve a chicken that has been rinsed with chlorinated water? Should I ensure my bbq doesn't get charred so that I don't create an excess of oxidized fats?

P01Shooter, With all due respect, you're taking the rule out of context. Don't get me wrong, not trying to start an argument, just trying to clarify somewhat.

The full rule reads...

7) All competition meats shall be inspected by the Official
Meat Inspector during the times established by the contest
organizer but not prior to the day before judging. Once the
competition meat has been inspected, it shall not leave the
contest site. Cooking shall not begin until the competition
meat has been inspected by the Official Meat Inspector. All

competition meat shall start out raw. No pre
seasoned meat
is allowed other than manufacturer enhanced or injected
products, as shown on label EXCLUDING but not limited to:
teriyaki, lemon pepper or butter injected.


When the contest
organizer supplies the meat, the contestant is not required to
enter only that meat. Competition meat not meeting these
qualifications shall be disqualified; given a one (1) in all criteria
by all six judges.

The rule applies to the meat a team brings to a competition. Nothing can be pre-seasoned, with the exception of "enhanced" meats from the store.

Once the meat has been inspected, and the inspector verifies it hasn't been pre-marinated, seasoned, etc., then it is the cooks perogative to season it however he chooses, as long as he uses approved cooking methods.

As to whether it's ethical or not, any bbq judge that thinks he isn't getting some quantity of injected or otherwise enhanced meat is likely not a very experienced judge. Besides, as many have already pointed out, there is an abundance of "enhanced" meat in supermarkets nowadays, and it isn't always clearly marked. Usually, in fact, you need to look for some VERY fine print saying something like. "up to 15 percent added solution"

As many have said here, if you expect to get calls as a competition team, it's likely you are going to take measures such as injecting, brining, etc.
You only have 1 or 2 bites to make an impression, and, against the competition these days, you have to make those bites "pop"!

I don't cook at home like I do for comps, and clearly most folks here don't either. But the fact that people do is likely not going away.



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Unread 08-17-2010, 04:47 PM   #54
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Looks like winter pre-season stuff, lol!
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Unread 08-18-2010, 06:30 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ames View Post
There is so much mis-information out there, that this subject is very difficult to discuss.

My father was a food technologist, and member of the IFT for the better part of four decades, and the "chemicals" that are being discussed here are simply part of my standard spice rack.

Most people talking about chemicals are concerned about side effects, I think, and even here, the placebo effect outweighs anything the FDA has to say about these things. Some people will swear on a stack of bibles that they are allergic to something. Are they? Is it real, like peanut allergies, or is it placebo? Are they really allergic to gluten, but they blame cilantro? Hard to say, definitely. Folks believe what they believe, and no evidence to the contrary will convince them. They may be right, after all. I'm not going to try and dismiss anybody's concerns.

However, I see a lot of common ingredients being bashed for no good reason, simply because people are afraid of what they don't understand. Mono-sodium glutamate looks scary, and so does mono-sodium chloride, yet people wouldn't think of cooking without the one, and they have conspiracy theories about the other.

For those that didn't get it, mono-sodium chloride is salt. It contains both sodium and chlorine. Chlorine is a deadly gas, and sodium explodes in water, but you can't live without them when they're bonded, and it tastes great. Who here cooks without salt? Consume too much, though, and it will kill you, and I'm not just talking about the risk of heart attack and stroke. Drink six ounces of salt in a glass of water and tell me how you feel. Heck, some judges are probably on low-sodium diets, but is anybody suggesting that comps ban the use of salt? It's the same with any chemical.

Phosphates are found naturally in all living tissue. So are glutamates. I could go on and on.

If it's the "spirit of BBQ" that you're interested in preserving, then why not ban pellet cookers, or green eggs? Both of them could be considered "cheating", because they're not what was used 100 years ago. Let's not even talk about "pit computers" and fans that regulate temperature! Should all of those be banned?

Like anything, too much of any ingredient is probably harmful. Too much fat will kill you from a heart attack. Sugar can kill diabetics. BBQ isn't health food.

Regarding MSG, it can actually LOWER the amount of sodium that you're taking in, because ounce for ounce, it has half the sodium of salt, and it's a stronger flavor enhancer to boot. Sodium inosinate and sodium guanylate are 100 times more powerful than salt. Sodium phosphates simply replace what was in the meat and has degraded. The fresher the meat, the more natural phosphates it contains. When you add it after the fact, you're pretty much replacing what was already there. Glutamates are in almost all proteins.

I'm not a chemist, but I do know a little about these things, so if you have any concerns, I might be able to point you in the right direction and sway you away from the conspiracy theorists. I think that education is the key in the whole "chemical" discussion, and I'd be happy to lend what I know to the groups.

As for my opinion, I'd like to see a separate category for "traditional barbecue". In that competition, you can't use computers or charcoal. No lighter fluid, only matches to start your fire and no pellets. You can't use a metal cooker, and the same meat is provided to every entrant to ensure consistency. Rubs have to be made on site and inspected with only selected ingredients from an on-site pantry. Now THAT would be interesting!
Great post!!!

But, for the record, I want to say that BBQ IS Health Food!!!
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Unread 08-18-2010, 09:25 AM   #56
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Nuff said.
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Unread 08-18-2010, 10:30 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roksmith View Post

Now.. if you're injecting with a little rubbing alcohol becasue you like the little kick it gives... well then we've got an issue.
I've said it before, we really need a "That's farkin' funny!" button in addition to the "Thanks!" button.
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