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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 12-15-2009, 07:41 PM   #1
Plowboy
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Default TOY Change for 2010

Does the current TOY change voted in for 2010 by the BOD make a significant impact in your opinion? The change is to cap bonus points to 50 instead of 100.

Here is the 2009 TOY standings for top 25 under the current 100 team bonus cap.

1 Pellet Envy
2 Smokey D's
3 ISS
4 Munchin
5 SOW
6 4 Legs
7 Butcher
8 Quau
9 Little Pig Town
10 Fl Skin & Bones
11 Lotta Bull
12 Plowboys
13 Parrothead
14 JP
15 Learn2Q
16 Rhythm
17 3 Eyz
18 Great Grills
19 Smoky Mountain Smokers
20 Cool Smoke
21 Ribs 4 U
22 House of Q
23 KC Can Crew
24 Slap Yo Daddy
25 Lo N Slo

Here is the same list with a 50 team cap applied for bonus points.

1 Pellet Envy
2 Smokey D's
4 Munchin
6 4 Legs
3 ISS
5 SOW
7 Butcher
8 Quau
11 Lotta Bull
14 JP
10 Fl Skin & Bones
16 Rhythm
13 Parrothead
9 Little Pig Town
12 Plowboys
15 Learn2Q
19 Smoky Mountain Smokers
18 Great Grills
17 3 Eyz
23 KC Can Crew
20 Cool Smoke
22 House of Q
24 Slap Yo Daddy
25 Lo N Slo
21 Ribs 4 U

Here are the number of positions they moved.

0 Pellet Envy
0 Smokey D's
1 Munchin
2 4 Legs
-2 ISS
-1 SOW
0 Butcher
0 Quau
2 Lotta Bull
4 JP
-1 Fl Skin & Bones
4 Rhythm
0 Parrothead
-5 Little Pig Town
-3 Plowboys
-1 Learn2Q
2 Smoky Mountain Smokers
0 Great Grills
-2 3 Eyz
3 KC Can Crew
-1 Cool Smoke
0 House of Q
1 Slap Yo Daddy
1 Lo N Slo
-4 Ribs 4 U
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Unread 12-15-2009, 07:45 PM   #2
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Several positions change, but here are the number of positions per grouping that see teams move out an in.

1 of Top 5
2 of Top 10
1 of Top 15
1 of Top 20
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Unread 12-15-2009, 07:52 PM   #3
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Since the field didn't change drastically, I'd say that from an outsider's point of view, it didn't really matter. However, if you were one of the teams that fell down the ladder, you might have a different opinion.

It would be a dream to even enter enough contests to be in the running for TOY.
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Unread 12-15-2009, 07:52 PM   #4
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What was the point of the rule change in the first place?
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Unread 12-15-2009, 07:59 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watertowerbbq View Post
Since the field didn't change drastically, I'd say that from an outsider's point of view, it didn't really matter. However, if you were one of the teams that fell down the ladder, you might have a different opinion.

It would be a dream to even enter enough contests to be in the running for TOY.
Unless you are 1st, 5th, 10th, or 20th... I'm not sure it matters.

If the new rules applied to a 2009 and all things were equal, we'd have moved from 12th to 15th. Big fat hairy deal.
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Unread 12-15-2009, 08:03 PM   #6
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BTW, I'm not trying to start another BOD bitch session. Someone had good reasons for making the change. I'm all for making it more fair for areas with fewer large contests. Does this really affect that? Wanting to hear the opinions of others.
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Randy Hinck (PigBoy); Concordia, MO
Andy Groneman (Hodedo); KC, KS (Cameo Appearances)

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Unread 12-15-2009, 08:14 PM   #7
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Number and Size of Contests

Number of Contests Completed288Total Number of Teams Competing11,677 TeamsAverage Number of Teams Per Contest40 TeamsNumber of Contests With 100 or More Teams6Average Number of Teams Per Contest Excluding Contests With 100 or More Teams37 Teams
Food for thought. These numbers and comparisons are interesting.

Number and Size of Contests
Number of Contests Completed
288
Total Number of Teams Competing
11,677 Teams
Average Number of Teams Per Contest
40 Teams
Number of Contests With 100 or More Teams
6
Average Number of Teams Per Contest Excluding Contests With 100 or More Teams
37 Teams



2009 results 100 bonus points
1)
PELLET ENVY 2926
2)IOWAS SMOKEY DS BBQ 2911
3) I SMELL SMOKE 2889
4) MUNCHIN HOGS AT THE HILTON 2821
5) SMOKE ON WHEELS 2809
6) FOUR LEGS UP BBQ 2808
7) BUTCHER BBQ 2766
QUAU 2721
9) LITTLE PIG TOWN BBQ 2708
10) FLORIDA SKIN AND BONES 2690
11) LOTTA BULL BBQ 2676
12) PORK PULLIN PLOWBOYS 2661
13) PARROTHEAD SMOKERS 2645
14) JP CUSTOM SMOKE 2640
15) LEARN2Q.COM 2636
16) RHYTHM N QUE 2620
17) THREE EYZ BBQ 2598
1 GREAT GRILLS O FIRE 2569
19) SMOKY MOUNTAIN SMOKERS 2536
20) COOL SMOKE 2509

Using 50 bonus points
1) PELLET ENVY 2871
2) IOWAS SMOKEY DS BBQ 2811
3) MUNCHIN HOGS AT THE HILTON 2768
4) FOUR LEGS UP BBQ 2765
5) I SMELL SMOKE 2763
6) SMOKE ON WHEELS 2751
7) BUTCHER BBQ 2720
QUAU 2703
9) LOTTA BULL BBQ 2662
10) JP CUSTOM SMOKE 2638
11) FLORIDA SKIN AND BONES 2635
12) RHYTHM N QUE 2618
13) PARROTHEAD SMOKERS 2606
14) LITTLE PIG TOWN BBQ 2596
15) PORK PULLIN PLOWBOYS 2591
16) LEARN2Q.COM 2561
17) SMOKY MOUNTAIN SMOKERS 2518
1 GREAT GRILLS O FIRE 2507
19) THREE EYZ BBQ 2501
20) KC CAN CREW 2445

Just food for thought.
Merl
1)PELLET ENVY29262)IOWAS SMOKEY DS BBQ29113)I SMELL SMOKE28894)MUNCHIN HOGS AT THE HILTON28215)SMOKE ON WHEELS28096)FOUR LEGS UP BBQ28087)BUTCHER BBQ2766QUAU27219)LITTLE PIG TOWN BBQ270810)FLORIDA SKIN AND BONES269011)LOTTA BULL BBQ267612)PORK PULLIN PLOWBOYS266113)PARROTHEAD SMOKERS264514)JP CUSTOM SMOKE264015)LEARN2Q.COM263616)RHYTHM N QUE262017)THREE EYZ BBQ25981GREAT GRILLS O FIRE256919)SMOKY MOUNTAIN SMOKERS253620)COOL SMOKE2509
1)PELLET ENVY29262)IOWAS SMOKEY DS BBQ29113)I SMELL SMOKE28894)MUNCHIN HOGS AT THE HILTON28215)SMOKE ON WHEELS28096)FOUR LEGS UP BBQ28087)BUTCHER BBQ2766QUAU27219)LITTLE PIG TOWN BBQ270810)FLORIDA SKIN AND BONES269011)LOTTA BULL BBQ267612)PORK PULLIN PLOWBOYS266113)PARROTHEAD SMOKERS264514)JP CUSTOM SMOKE264015)LEARN2Q.COM263616)RHYTHM N QUE262017)THREE EYZ BBQ25981GREAT GRILLS O FIRE256919)SMOKY MOUNTAIN SMOKERS253620)COOL SMOKE25091)PELLET ENVY29262)IOWAS SMOKEY DS BBQ29113)I SMELL SMOKE28894)MUNCHIN HOGS AT THE HILTON28215)SMOKE ON WHEELS28096)FOUR LEGS UP BBQ28087)BUTCHER BBQ2766QUAU27219)LITTLE PIG TOWN BBQ270810)FLORIDA SKIN AND BONES269011)LOTTA BULL BBQ267612)PORK PULLIN PLOWBOYS266113)PARROTHEAD SMOKERS264514)JP CUSTOM SMOKE264015)LEARN2Q.COM263616)RHYTHM N QUE262017)THREE EYZ BBQ25981GREAT GRILLS O FIRE256919)SMOKY MOUNTAIN SMOKERS253620)COOL SMOKE25091)PELLET ENVY29262)IOWAS SMOKEY DS BBQ29113)I SMELL SMOKE28894)MUNCHIN HOGS AT THE HILTON28215)SMOKE ON WHEELS28096)FOUR LEGS UP BBQ28087)BUTCHER BBQ2766QUAU27219)LITTLE PIG TOWN BBQ270810)FLORIDA SKIN AND BONES269011)LOTTA BULL BBQ267612)PORK PULLIN PLOWBOYS266113)PARROTHEAD SMOKERS264514)JP CUSTOM SMOKE264015)LEARN2Q.COM263616)RHYTHM N QUE262017)THREE EYZ BBQ25981GREAT GRILLS O FIRE256919)SMOKY MOUNTAIN SMOKERS253620)COOL SMOKE2509
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Unread 12-16-2009, 08:39 AM   #8
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Default Suggested T.O.Y Calculations

The biggest problem with the current T.O.Y. point system is that teams doing a large number of contests each year still have a distinct advantage over teams doing fewer contests. This advantage is the ability to have more chances to improve their top 10 scores. I understand that the top 10 scores were only considered starting this year but it did not go far enough. Since I am more familiar with the Pork category I will refer to only the standings there. However, the same logic can be applied to other categories or overall.

For example, in the Pork category, Pellet Envy cooked 30 contests this year and Brew N Bar B Que cooked only 12 with the winner, Little Pig Town cooking 26. Yet, Brew N Brew finished 8th, Pellet Envy 9th and Little Pig Town 1st. Cooking only 12 contests in one year and placing as high as 8th with the number of top 10 finishes they had is an awesome feat! Iíd love to know how they would have done with 30 contests. This type of performance cannot go unnoticed and yet it does.

Limiting 50 bonus points does nothing to improve the fairness of these contests as has already been mathematically proven. In fact, I think it is even more unfair because teams are not compensated for excellent performance when beating 99 other teams. Limiting any bonus points is like awarding trophies to all kids on a baseball team regardless if they placed first or last. OR, like limiting the score differential in a basketball game.

The ONLY way to be fair to all teams is to continue awarding points as they are currently awarded and THEN calculating the average points with their best top ten contests. The T.O.Y finish would be drastically different in Pork.

Since this is lengthy enough, I will end it here. I will be glad to send a simple Excel Spreadsheet to interested parties showing how the T.O.Y standings would be different but PLEASE make the T.O.Y calculations more fair!
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Unread 12-16-2009, 09:32 AM   #9
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Each argument or proposed change has its pro and con side.

For example, the statement that it's unfair for teams to not be rewarded for cooking large contests. From the stats above, we see that there were 6 contests with 100 or more entrants. That leaves a lot of the country out of the mix, where teams simply don't have access to those large contests without undue hardship in terms of travel, expense, time off. Is that fair?

The small variation under the proposed 50-point cap is of interest. Since the average number of teams per contest (excluding megashows) is 37, should the cutoff be closer to average? Would that make a bigger difference?

The number of contests done is also brought up as a limiting/enhancing factor. Sure, a team that cooks more has more bites at the apple. They also have more opportunities to have a bad cook, or hit a "bad table". I wonder if a larger number of contests done isn't simply an opportunity for statistics and consistency to level things out.

So what is the purpose of ToY, exactly? Is it to reward truly outstanding teams that put it on the line week after week, exposing this sport/hobby to many members of the public? Is it to dilute the concept down to the average joe who goes on three outings a year?

How would that encourage anyone to compete more? If we were to start the next season hot and pull down a couple of GCs, then by that logic we should sit on our butts for the rest of the season to preserve that average. I don't think that serves anybody well.

I think ToY is like test cooks: change one thing, see the result. Change another thing, see the result. If you start changing too many variables at once, how will you know what produced the result you want?
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Unread 12-16-2009, 10:16 AM   #10
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To illustrate averaging from 10 best, here's the top 20 re-sorted by their average:

17. THREE EYZ BBQ 2598 over 13 contests = 199.846
18. GREAT GRILLS O FIRE 2569 over 14 contests = 183.5
20. COOL SMOKE 2509 over 15 contests = 167.2666
12. PORK PULLIN PLOWBOYS 2661 over 19 contests = 140.0526
13. PARROTHEAD SMOKERS 2645 over 19 contests = 139.2105
3. I SMELL SMOKE 2889 over 21 contests = 137.5714
5. SMOKE ON WHEELS 2809 over 21 contests = 133.7619
15. LEARN2Q.COM 2636 over 20 contests = 131.8
16. RHYTHM N QUE 2620 over 20 contests = 131.0
2. IOWAS SMOKEY DS BBQ 2911 over 25 contests = 116.44
7. BUTCHER BBQ 2766 over 25 contests = 110.64
9. LITTLE PIG TOWN BBQ 2708 over 26 contests = 104.1538
14. JP CUSTOM SMOKE 2640 over 26 contests = 101.5385
1. PELLET ENVY 2926 over 29 contests = 100.8966
11. LOTTA BULL BBQ 2676 over 27 contests = 99.1111
4. MUNCHIN HOGS AT THE HILTON 2821 over 30 contests = 94.0333
6. FOUR LEGS UP BBQ 2808 over 30 contests = 93.6
19. SMOKY MOUNTAIN SMOKERS 2536 over 28 contests = 90.5714
10. FLORIDA SKIN AND BONES 2690 over 30 contests = 89.6666
8. QUAU 2721 over 37 contests = 73.5405
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Unread 12-16-2009, 10:28 AM   #11
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If you're not first you're last!!!
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Unread 12-16-2009, 10:31 AM   #12
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As I was digging into this last night, I saw how well Three Eyz did this year. Hats off to them and I'm glad we don't have to battle them in the Midwest.
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Unread 12-16-2009, 10:33 AM   #13
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Who cares about TOY. Now if somebody like the KCBS puts up $50k for it maybe more will be interested. That's the change I'd like to hear voted on. But that's a budgetary issue not a rules issue.
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Unread 12-16-2009, 10:34 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plowboy View Post
As I was digging into this last night, I saw how well Three Eyz did this year. Hats off to them and I'm glad we don't have to battle them in the Midwest.
You aint lying, we have to battle them at almost every comp. Dan and Dan are great cooks.
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Unread 12-16-2009, 10:43 AM   #15
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Thanks for tallying that, pretty interesting. Just remember that statics are just that and there are a bunch of ways to look and analyze the data. But I have to admit, that is my favorite so far

Still - Pellet Envy won it, so hats off to them
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