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Q-talk *ON TOPIC ONLY* QUALITY ON TOPIC discussion of Backyard BBQ, grilling, Equipment and just outdoor cookin' in general, hints, tips, tricks & techniques, success, failures... but stay on topic. And watch for that hijacking.


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Unread 08-01-2009, 07:07 PM   #46
BBQ Grail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Jorgan View Post
If I have come across as an arrogant know it all I apologize. If I have disrespected anyone I apologize, that is not my intent.

That being said, if truth and history and correct word usage make you guys so mad, maybe we should change the name of the forum to the BBQ-Old Ladies. Seriously, lighten up.

Once again, I have not called anyone's cooking skills into question or promoted one style of cooking over another, I have not insulted anyone. All I have done is try to explain the difference between real honest to god BBQ, and what most people around the world call BBQ. Here are the facts:

Barbecue has always referred to a style of cooking over fire.
It has only been in the last 50 or 60 years that people began referring to anything besides pork as BBQ.
Light red sauce has only been around for about 100 years, since ketchup became readily available.
Thick sweet red sauce has only been around for about 50 or 60 years.
It has traditionally been understood that when someone says "I'm going to have a plate of BBQ" that they were referring to pulled pork.

Like I've said. lots of people call their SUV a truck, but that don't make it a truck.

So I am sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes. But if you're gonna claim that I am disrespecting anyone maybe you could look through the posts and show me where. 'Cause I don't see it. With all due respect, if I called my rice mashed potatoes for thirty years, would that make it so? No it would not it would still be rice. I would have just been calling it the wrong name for thirty years.

It's easy for people to get along with others who share their opinions, right or wrong. I understand. But sometimes you just need to look at what someone else is saying and actually listen instead of saying, "This is the way I've always done it so it must be right." BBQ has been around for a long time. It hasn't changed a bit. What has changed is people have expanded the usage of the term to make it a catch all for anything cooked over fire. This is incorrect. Lots of people call BBQ anything that they put sauce on. This is also incorrect. But hey, if you want to call a dog a cat or a rhinoceros an elephant, you are free to. But the word usage would be just as misplaced there as here. So sorry if I offended anyone.
I've got books, magazine articles, recipes and other reference materials, by experts I greatly respect, that say you aren't right either. One says first BBQ is goat, one says pig and one or two say beef.

NO ONE KNOWS WHERE THE TERM BBQ CAME FROM!

Your apology, although a nice gesture, came across as "I'm sorry you're wrong."

I hope you stick around here because it's obvious you know a great deal and we are all about learning from each other. However, you appear to be still discounting our knowledge because we call something BBQ that you don't.

Good luck!

Because we are...
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Unread 08-01-2009, 07:19 PM   #47
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I am not discounting or calling into question anyone's knowledge! Just saying the usage of the term is misplaced. The first BBQ was shared by the Spaniards under Ponce de Leon and the natives of the South Carolina coast. This is where we get the style.

Sure people have been cooking meat over fire since time immemorial. BUT we are talking about American BBQ. I am sure that goat or a close cousin would have been one of the earlier forms of meat consumed. That is not what we are talking about though.


#edit#
Apparantly someone knows.

verb (barbecues, barbecued, barbecuing) cook (food) on a barbecue.
— ORIGIN originally in the sense wooden framework for sleeping on, or for drying meat or fish on: from Spanish barbacoa, perhaps from Arawak, ‘wooden frame on posts’.



From the Oxford English Dictionary, sorry you were wrong.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 07:21 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Jorgan View Post
I am not discounting or calling into question anyone's knowledge! Just saying the usage of the term is misplaced. The first BBQ was shared by the Spaniards under Ponce de Leon and the natives of the South Carolina coast. This is where we get the style.

Sure people have been cooking meat over fire since time immemorial. BUT we are talking about American BBQ. I am sure that goat or a close cousin would have been one of the earlier forms of meat consumed. that is not what we are talking about though.
Okay, I give up! You win.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 07:30 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick's Tropical Delight View Post
i want to party with you, man!
i didn't have the heart to read the whole thread man....
while funk-a-que has some great technical knowledge.. bro, i think yer way over thinking it......it's like this..
steak,chix,seafood,etc. over high heat is grilling.
butts,brisket for hours upon la ti da @ 225 is smoking...
beers,buds,& blues w/ food over a fire @ my place-or anyone's(an event) is BBQ.
BBQ @ it's essence is a gathering,an event, a celebration w/ the primal forces of man, meat,& heat having a good time.

NOW THATS BBQ.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 07:32 PM   #50
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ps. homo erectus(neandrathal man)had it down way before the spaniards.....
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Unread 08-01-2009, 08:24 PM   #51
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American bbq....deer, elk, turkey, bear, some unlucky foreign travelers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blues_n_cues View Post
...beers,buds,& blues w/ food over a fire @ my place-or anyone's(an event) is BBQ.
BBQ @ it's essence is a gathering,an event, a celebration w/ the primal forces of man, meat,& heat having a good time.

NOW THATS BBQ.
I second that.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 08:37 PM   #52
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I feel a hijack comin on....
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Unread 08-01-2009, 08:42 PM   #53
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Hmmmm. I think his point is that since the Spaniards introduced domesticated Pigs to the Americas in the 1500s that this is the original BBQ and everything else is not.

And that we are wrong Grammatically (Syntactically). This theory comes from READING too much of what has been opined about BBQ.

Sadly... there is a truth to your own information that disproves your theory that BBQ is solely Pork. That is mainly, that the Spaniards also brought cattle, goats, Chickens, sheep and APPLIED the existing Caribbean techniques and Moles and sauces from the pre-Colombian Indians of the regions. So.... well, then I guess then by your own "syntax" then, pig is out with all the rest because the Tainos (I think I have it spelled right) predate Colombian colonization and basically cooked WILD GAME over fires and pits and leaf Envelopes. Forgive me if I am wrong on the spelling as I haven't had the 16 hours of Colonial History in 13 years.

I hope you can see why I used the word SYNTAX there.

Barbacoa was made with cow cheeks BEEF, and goat (Cabrito) in differing regions. It's basically what they had or what was regionally available. So therein is why most people who are in the know... and I will WARN you that you are surrounded by these people here in this forum you will find and they are Captains of their fields... this is why we Commonly accept that BBQ IS NOT A TYPE OF MEAT BUT A GENERAL PROCESS.

Had you poked around a but (Actually I will not correct that word) or BUTT, you will see we peacefully just discussed the term Low and slow and why its called that and generally where those points are differentiated from hot and fast.

I told a story once of leaving Texas and going into Tennessee and the Carolinas and refusing to eat pork BBQ for the same reason you say Beef is not BBQ. Ignorance and inflexibility. I can say that about myself so please don't get all half-cocked and pissy 'cuz I directed it at you.

I eventually MASTERED 14 styles of BBQ. Mastered. That means first I had to humble myself enough to listen to some other style... not meat... style.

Your input can be appreciated but honestly we have all read whats on the internet these days and don't need a greenhorn coming in a regurgitating Wikipedia or some other online dictionary to us.

I look forward to your less abrasive debates and arguments, as long as they are cogent, in the future. Come on... I know you can do it
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Unread 08-01-2009, 08:57 PM   #54
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BBQ is what comes off MY cooker, it is my food and will call it what I want to. Don't like it, I don't give a fark, as long as I like it.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 08:59 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
BBQ is what comes off MY cooker, it is my food and will call it what I want to. Don't like it, I don't give a fark, as long as I like it.
Amen!
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Unread 08-01-2009, 09:00 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
BBQ is what comes off MY cooker, it is my food and will call it what I want to. Don't like it, I don't give a fark, as long as I like it.
Someday Big Al is going to come out of his shell and start speaking his mind.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 09:02 PM   #57
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Let see... let me show you what I would argue if I were in your position.

Texas Barbecue is should not be considered the first original AMERICAN barbecue as it was mostly influenced from the region of Mexico; establishing patterns that continue today. The Border crossed into Mexico after the Texas Mexican Conflict and thus after a brief Republic the region was then American.

The Germans and Czech that entered through Galveston impacted a new OVEN style of BBQ ing but still post date Colombian Introduction of mostly pigs in the Carolinas.

Therefore, Pork is the Original American bbq by some 300 Years, while Texan BBQ traditions are mostly considered borrowed from the Native Caribbean Indian styles that Migrated upward from the south.

However, the caveat to this would be, should you expand the scope of the geology to include South American and also not IGNORE the Native Indian contribution as many anglophiles have for years, one would see that BBQ styles were here long before any colonization. In essence, you can prove what is original merely by moving the borders or narrowing the scope.

This is how you argue - not - "I am sorry but if you can't deal with being wrong then maybe this forum should be called the old ladies club."

In addition to being a master of many styles of BBQ, I am also well credentialed, a regional linguist (that knows what syntax is), I have two degrees one in History and the other in Political Science, and a successful BBQ business man and published writer. And there are many on this forum that are as knowledgeable and and even exceed my expertise here. So tread lightly my supercilious fellow... you are in Rome.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 09:14 PM   #58
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Finally on sweet sauces. Like I said, I did an internship for the Upper Cumberland Institute and I collected recipes that dated from the late 1700 from that region alone. Sweet syrupy sauces, especially as you go south from Tennessee and into Mississippi predate the Civil war. I am sorry that these letters to daughters from mothers and recipes in Church Bibles have not made it to anyone's computer screen. So, I am sorry, just because marketing developed after the war does not mean that sauce didn't predate it.

And in celebration of exactly where sauces got notably sweeter as they went west... its time for my beale street red and wet sauce


Now to your list of FACTS

"Here are the facts:

Barbecue has always referred to a style of cooking over fire.
Yes, but no temperature between 200 and 350 has been settle on. Different meats needs different Temps.

It has only been in the last 50 or 60 years that people began referring to anything besides pork as BBQ.

Wrong - Please visit the Archives of Appalachian State or North Carolina of Chapel Hill and ask for whoever heads their documents of social history and peruse through them. That is if you continue to negate the native recipes of my region, just use your own. Not to mention... Kreuz 69 years, and the pit bosses of the trail riders from Texas to Kansas City, 1860's, or the regions of the low country in Louisiana, which I know have BBQd some rather nasty stuff.

Light red sauce has only been around for about 100 years, since ketchup became readily available.

Red sauce recipes in the Western North Carolina areas and Tennessee across the Plateau have used tomato pastes and simple tomato sauces added since Antebellum times. You would also discount the role of the African American Slave's contribution to BBQ in claiming this. Even evidence online can be found to prove this is not the case.


Thick sweet red sauce has only been around for about 50 or 60 years.
This is wrong again...even if you use your model of CANNED EVIDENCE ONLY it would date to about 1926 or so when the first sauce was available for retail.

Funnier still... you would be negating Columbus's own sauces brought to this country if you prescribe to this logic... There is a meat sauce you slather on while you slow roast meat that the spanish used for centuries and it has a thick sweet red base... the name escapes me.


It has traditionally been understood that when someone says "I'm going to have a plate of BBQ" that they were referring to pulled pork.

It is traditionally understood that when a woman say she wants you to "knock her up" it means to call her on the phone.... well at least in that region.

Barbacoa - Northern Mexico (Goat) - Central Mexico - Cattle Head parts - Texas - Beef - North Carolina - Pig - Beale Street Ribs

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A plate of BBQ is short ribs in a crock pot LOL
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Unread 08-01-2009, 09:15 PM   #59
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Supercilious! I haven't used that word since college... and that was a LONG time ago!

Take a deep breath gentlemen... smell the smoke! It's all gonna be ok...

BTW My ribs were farking delicious tonight! and THAT is what it's all about!
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Unread 08-01-2009, 09:34 PM   #60
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haha, i love this place!!
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