The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS.


Forum Portal Recipes Smoke Signals Magazine Welocme Merchandise Associations Purchase Subscription Brethren Banners
Go Back   The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS. > Discussion Area > Competition BBQ

Notices

Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 07-15-2009, 09:51 PM   #1
YankeeBBQ
is One Chatty Farker
 
Join Date: 02-07-06
Location: boston ma
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default Discussion on sliceing pork and putting it back in the cooker

The topic of slicing or pulling pork and putting it back in the cooker was discussed at the KCBS board meeting tonight. Of course the way it was brought up was actually a little disingenuous in my opinion. Mike Lake said that people were asking about partially cooking their pork then slicing part of it off and putting it back in the cooker to finish cooking. I don't think that's what most people were doing. I think people were fully cooking their pork pulling some and slicing some applying sauce and putting it back into the cooker for a short period of time so it would get to the judges hot.

The way Mike stated it everyone on the board was against it. I think if it was presented in a factual manner the outcome may have been different. Oh well no big deal. Just make sure your sauce is nice and hot when you apply it and I'm sure it will do the same thing (first place pork in Wildwood)
YankeeBBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-15-2009, 10:03 PM   #2
Jeff_in_KC
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
Jeff_in_KC's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-04-05
Location: Pleasant Hill, MO
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

With my track record in pork recently, I'm not gonna complain about it however, I don't see why there SHOULD be a problem with say removing the muscle you are targeting when it gets to slicing temp and putting the rest back in to take up to pulling temp. Hell, if you want a lot of the money muscle for your presentation and you only cook two butts, you're in a bind. I mean seriously, it makes it MORE difficult, not less to do this because you not only have to be right on in catching the slicing temp just right, you also have to be right on with the pulling btemp so it doesn't turn to mush.
__________________
KCBS Member #14287
Jeff_in_KC is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-15-2009, 10:45 PM   #3
HoDeDo
Babbling Farker
 
HoDeDo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-19-06
Location: Kansas City
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

I agree Steve. It's an interesting topic.... I think the rule is there to keep folks from parting while cooking. Or some would say substituting a tenderloin for a "money muscle".

There are no other rules with any of the other meats about parting... and no rules about not being able to finish/hold in a cooker.

I guess we need to get more specific, and state that you cannot cook the meat "further" - so if you have taken it to 190 and sliced.... putting it in a 190 degree cooker to keep warm or "finish" with sauce, would not be cooking any further...

If you can't put the meat back over a heat source, how do they expect you to keep it above 140 degrees for safety sake? I think most folks would slice and put back in a warm cooker to keep from turning in meat that is not warm enough to serve.

Oh well, I am sure we will find more out if the real question, about "finishing" comes up. My meat is not parted until after it is cooked.
__________________
Andy /Smoke on Wheels Competition BBQ - www.smokeonwheels.com
HoDeDo is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 05:34 AM   #4
Rick's Tropical Delight
** Permanent Timeout **
 
Join Date: 04-25-07
Location: Farmersville, Ohio
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

this raises another question for me. what is the prefered "legal" method of heating the sauce?
Rick's Tropical Delight is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 06:04 AM   #5
Double D's BBQ
Full Fledged Farker
 
Double D's BBQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-31-05
Location: Hudson, OH
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

There are no legalities regarding sauce, only meat. Feel free to use your gas burners to heat your sauce as long as they are not attached to your pit.
__________________
1. Jamie Geer Large Trailer Mounted Pit
2. Klose Fajita Grill
3. Jedmaster 3660 Champion
4. Primo Oval
5. Stumps GF 223
6. FEC 100
7. Backwoods Smoker - Fatboy
8. Traeger Texas Grill (BBQ 075)
Double D's BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 06:11 AM   #6
Double D's BBQ
Full Fledged Farker
 
Double D's BBQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-31-05
Location: Hudson, OH
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

I don't quite understand why their is a distinction between parting a pork muscle and parting a brisket muscle. The point on a brisket requires further cooking after separating it from the flat. Why is this legal and not the removal of the money muscle before it is over cooked. Perhaps this is a question better left no asked to the board.

Just another thought then, if brisket flats can be cooked from a raw state without the point then can pork butts be cooked without the money muscle from a raw state as long as the butt exceeds five lbs in weight? I think I just answered my own question as I was typing though. I assume then that the money muscle would have to exceed or equal 5 lbs of weight then if cooked separately.

I guess it appears that the only way to get a properly cooked legal money muscle then is to cook the entire butt to the desired internal temp of the money muscle and then have separate butts for pulled pork.
__________________
1. Jamie Geer Large Trailer Mounted Pit
2. Klose Fajita Grill
3. Jedmaster 3660 Champion
4. Primo Oval
5. Stumps GF 223
6. FEC 100
7. Backwoods Smoker - Fatboy
8. Traeger Texas Grill (BBQ 075)
Double D's BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 06:34 AM   #7
Lakeside Smoker
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Lakeside Smoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-17-07
Location: Methuen, MA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

What if I take my charcoal basket out of the cooker before the pork goes in?
__________________
Blog

In polite society, we have an unspoken agreement to call our obsessions hobbies. - Stephen King
Lakeside Smoker is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 06:42 AM   #8
Skip
is One Chatty Farker
 
Skip's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-24-07
Location: Wantagh, NY
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Mike Lake incorrectly stated the discussion. If it truly was the discussion started here. No one questioned whether putting half a butt back in to bring to pulling temp was illegal. We all know that is. What was either brilliant strategy or a complete oversight in doing so is that this issue probably won't be brought up again and if it is someone will cry "we already addressed that" and move on.

IMO the rule is there so that more preferred or higher quality pieces are not substituted for the shoulder. Or that people don't butcher out the preferred pieces in a shoulder i.e. money muscle and just cook it alone. That is strictly my interpretation of the rule. I see it as a friendly rule to keep the competition on an equal playing field. Unfortunately we will never be able to accurately interpret this rule unless we define cooking. Many could say that once a shoulder is pulled at "commonly accepted" temperature for doneness that the cooking side is done. Anything beyond that would be considered maintaining temp. Others could say that any introduction of heat is considered cooking and all meats should maintain enough heat after cooking to meet the HD requirement. Still others may find a gray area in between. The problem with the commonly accepted temperature is that someone could push the limit and pull at around 190 for slicing, pull the muscles they want and then return their meat to a 200+ cooker to boost the rest to pulling temp. Then again those who state any heat is cooking will have to wrangle with the use of cambros and "other" heat sources like cooked briskets. I've seen my cambro hold heat for days. Then there is the use of sauce. What if your sauce imparts heat, is that cooking too?

So the question at hand is do we trust in the integrity of teams to not purposefully cheat or do we bring this to the board as it has been questioned here. I think we are overthinking this rule and its intention but there is merit in what others say to the contrary. Maybe the fact that the use of specific muscle groups has become common practice and its use almost a necessity does lend itself to a need for interpretation. Not because people are trying to cheat but that the cook style now requires a more thought out definition of the rule. I think it would be a mistake to redefine the rule but I'm not a board member.
__________________
WannaBeBBQueen's Prince Consort

Swamp Pit BBQ's freeloader

To part or not to part: that is the question. Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind to part and suffer the slings and arrows of ostentatious brothers or to not part when faced with a sea of dissent, and by compromise end it? To part: to succeed. Forever more: and by succeed to say we win.

Yeah it looks good...but how does it smell?

Member of The Big Guns BBQ Team Semper Fumantem

"you're eating tree RAT, tree RAT, you're eating RAT!" -- landarc
Skip is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 07:06 AM   #9
Buster Dog BBQ
is One Chatty Farker
 
Join Date: 07-20-08
Location: Clive, IA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double D's BBQ View Post
I don't quite understand why their is a distinction between parting a pork muscle and parting a brisket muscle. The point on a brisket requires further cooking after separating it from the flat. Why is this legal and not the removal of the money muscle before it is over cooked. Perhaps this is a question better left no asked to the board.

Just another thought then, if brisket flats can be cooked from a raw state without the point then can pork butts be cooked without the money muscle from a raw state as long as the butt exceeds five lbs in weight? I think I just answered my own question as I was typing though. I assume then that the money muscle would have to exceed or equal 5 lbs of weight then if cooked separately.

I guess it appears that the only way to get a properly cooked legal money muscle then is to cook the entire butt to the desired internal temp of the money muscle and then have separate butts for pulled pork.
Because someone could sub a pork tenderloin and turn that in sliced. There really isnt another beef product you can sub for the point.
__________________
FEC-100 Right Handed, FEC-100 Left Handed, Large BGE x2, Mini BGE
Buster Dog BBQ - [url]http://www.busterdogbbq.com[/url]
Buster Dog BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 07:30 AM   #10
Brew-B-Q
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Join Date: 05-27-08
Location: Wauconda, IL
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick's Tropical Delight View Post
this raises another question for me. what is the prefered "legal" method of heating the sauce?
I did a double take last weekend as I was heating up some sauce in my new microwave. I think you can do whatever you want to heat the sauce, as long as there isn't any meat in it.
Brew-B-Q is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 07:40 AM   #11
Jacked UP BBQ
Babbling Farker
 
Join Date: 06-09-08
Location: Forker River, NJ
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Talk about wording it so you can get the answer you want. I am glad they had the discussion, still doesn't make my interpreation illegal!!!!!!!!
__________________
Jacked UP BBQ vending


Ocean County Pig Assassins competition team retired and is now known as Jacked UP BBQ

Fec 750
Fec 100
Large Spicewine
Jacked UP BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 07:41 AM   #12
Double D's BBQ
Full Fledged Farker
 
Double D's BBQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-31-05
Location: Hudson, OH
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Dog BBQ View Post
Because someone could sub a pork tenderloin and turn that in sliced. There really isnt another beef product you can sub for the point.
And that would be grounds for not only DQ but a permanent ban for life from all KCBS contests. The inconsistency of the issue is what is important here. With brisket you remove the point when the flat is to its desired temperature remove the excess fat, apply more rub and then throw it back on the cooker for a couple more hours. Don't see any difference between removing the money mucscle for slicing and then throwing the remaider of the butt back on the cooker until it's internal temp raises 20 degrees or so for pulling.

I don't even want to go down the road of substituting higher quality meats as that is blatantly dishonest and leaves no room for interpretation. I guess if someone wants to win that badly they could chop up some prime rib for burnt ends and some judges may or may not pick up on it. It just seems to me that if parting and recooking is good for one form of meat it ought to be good for another. Its blatant discrimination. Where is Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson when we need them!
__________________
1. Jamie Geer Large Trailer Mounted Pit
2. Klose Fajita Grill
3. Jedmaster 3660 Champion
4. Primo Oval
5. Stumps GF 223
6. FEC 100
7. Backwoods Smoker - Fatboy
8. Traeger Texas Grill (BBQ 075)
Double D's BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 07:45 AM   #13
goodsmokebbq
is one Smokin' Farker
 
goodsmokebbq's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-17-07
Location: Rochester, NY
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeBBQ View Post
The topic of slicing or pulling pork and putting it back in the cooker was discussed at the KCBS board meeting tonight. Of course the way it was brought up was actually a little disingenuous in my opinion. Mike Lake said that people were asking about partially cooking their pork then slicing part of it off and putting it back in the cooker to finish cooking. I don't think that's what most people were doing. I think people were fully cooking their pork pulling some and slicing some applying sauce and putting it back into the cooker for a short period of time so it would get to the judges hot.

The way Mike stated it everyone on the board was against it. I think if it was presented in a factual manner the outcome may have been different. Oh well no big deal. Just make sure your sauce is nice and hot when you apply it and I'm sure it will do the same thing (first place pork in Wildwood)
It's too bad the issue wasn't properly presented. We just want our food nice and hot (and SAFE) for the judges. Why can't we restate the rule that after a certain temp the butt is cooked and we can do whatever we want. The way people butterfly their butts the money muscle IS being cooked by itself, who are we kidding here. 2 cents...
__________________
Brian

There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those that don't

http://www.goodsmokebbq.com
http://www.roccityribfest.com
http://www.nybbqchamp.com
Backwoods Party,Backwoods Competitor,Weber 26
goodsmokebbq is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 07:47 AM   #14
Ford
is Blowin Smoke!
 
Ford's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-14-07
Location: Lakeland Florida
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quit sh)t disturbing. We all know the rule and it's clear. Pork is cooked whole and that's it. May not be what you like but it's the rule and it's for everybody. Brisket has no such rule and you can cook flats or whole packers so it's your choice.

Pork can't go back in the cooker once parted even to rewarm. Simple rule and if you don't like it submit a request for the next rules meeting to change it.
__________________
Ford
Retired competition cook. BBQ mentor.
Ford is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-16-2009, 07:48 AM   #15
goodsmokebbq
is one Smokin' Farker
 
goodsmokebbq's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-17-07
Location: Rochester, NY
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakeside Smoker View Post
What if I take my charcoal basket out of the cooker before the pork goes in?

Excellent question! Now it is just a warm cambro.
__________________
Brian

There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those that don't

http://www.goodsmokebbq.com
http://www.roccityribfest.com
http://www.nybbqchamp.com
Backwoods Party,Backwoods Competitor,Weber 26
goodsmokebbq is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ceramic Cooker Meets Ugly Drum Smoker - BUDCS - Concept Drum Discussion Hook_Line_and_Sinker Q-talk 9 04-26-2008 02:24 PM
more pork steak discussion SmokeyBear Q-talk 2 10-14-2007 02:24 PM
7/30/05 weekend - what are YOU putting in your cooker? Cuelio Q-talk 59 08-02-2005 07:38 AM

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Loading



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.6.0 Beta 4 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2003 -2012 © BBQ-Brethren Inc. All rights reserved. All Content and Flaming Pig Logo are registered and protected under U.S and International Copyright and Trademarks. Content Within this Website Is Property of BBQ Brethren Inc. Reproduction or alteration is strictly prohibited.
no new posts