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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 07-04-2008, 07:37 AM   #1
Brewmaster
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Lightbulb Is it legal.....

I know when you cook pork for KCBS you need to cook a 5lb piece of meat. My question is if I start with a 6lb piece of meat and I trim part of it (2lbs) and leave it connected and 3/4 of the way through the cook I remove this part because I want to slice it. I leave the rest (4lbs) on the smoker to cook longer. Is this legal? Do I only need to start with 5lb piece or do I need to end up with a 5 lb piece?

Then that brings me to my next questions. If I need to start with 5lbs, can I remove the 2lb piece after an hour?

If you have to finish with a 5lb piece, what happens if you start with a 5.5lb butt and it loses more than 1/2lb when when it cooks?

Cheers,

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Unread 07-04-2008, 07:52 AM   #2
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I would say, yes it's legal. In my limited comp experience, I've never seen a rep or anyone else check someone's smoker to see what size butts,brisket or any other meat was being cooked.
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Unread 07-04-2008, 07:55 AM   #3
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Yes its legal. Its what you start with that counts.
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Unread 07-04-2008, 08:00 AM   #4
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On occasion, I've known of teams that de-boned a butt, but did not do it before hand just so they could prove that it met the weight requirement.
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Unread 07-04-2008, 08:22 AM   #5
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I thought that it had to be cooked whole, and not parted in anyway during the cooking process. Or am I wrong?
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Unread 07-04-2008, 08:30 AM   #6
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PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork
shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.

So define cooked? is it 145 F or the final temp? This is one that needs to go to the KCBS BOD and probably the rules committee will want to discuss it for next year.

As I read it the answer is you can not cut the meat and put back on the pit. Nor can a piece "fall off" and be removed from the pit ahead of other peices.

Brisket can be parted so it's legal to put the point back on.
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Unread 07-04-2008, 08:56 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford View Post
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole

Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork
shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.

So define cooked? is it 145 F or the final temp? This is one that needs to go to the KCBS BOD and probably the rules committee will want to discuss it for next year.

As I read it the answer is you can not cut the meat and put back on the pit. Nor can a piece "fall off" and be removed from the pit ahead of other peices.

Brisket can be parted so it's legal to put the point back on.
Ford by no means is this directed in your way.

Rules are put down to be followed: with that said the cooks will always find away to spilt hairs to make the rules fit there needs. As times change rules go in front of the BOD and a slight change might be made or not. This rule has been in effect for awhile I say live with it. Play by the rules and we as cooks need to quit trying to skirt the rules and man up and play the the rules put forth by the KCBS that we all worship so dearly.
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Unread 07-04-2008, 09:32 AM   #8
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Just curious why anyone would want to cook a puney butt or a small brisket to begin with. Give me a nine pound butt and a thirteen lb or bigger brisket anyday. There is plenty of time to cook large cuts of meat at comps unless your not showing up until Saturday at 8 in the morning. Seen that in the Grand Rapids contest BTW.

I don't see where cooking smaller cuts give you an advantage. Quite the opposite I would think! I like big butts and big briskets!
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Unread 07-04-2008, 09:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford View Post
As I read it the answer is you can not cut the meat and put back on the pit. Nor can a piece "fall off" and be removed from the pit ahead of other peices.

If that is the case, then pulling and slicing the pork after being cooked and putting back on the cooker in a dredge pan or foil to reheat or stay warm would also be a violation. For that matter, "cooking" continues in a Cambro or dry cooler so the pork could not be parted prior to being wrapped in foil and placed in one of those vessels either.

I think a number of teams would be in violation of this rule if that is how it is interpreted. I would be very interested to hear from the rules committee on the topic.
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Unread 07-04-2008, 09:44 AM   #10
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At our last comp, I wanted to put pulled and sliced pork in my box. I thought about doing just what you are talking about, but was afraid it would be a rule violation. Instead, I cooked two butts and pulled one at 180* to slice and let the other one go to 195* to pull.

Didn't improve my pork scores though
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Unread 07-04-2008, 09:47 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double D's BBQ View Post
Just curious why anyone would want to cook a puney butt or a small brisket to begin with. Give me a nine pound butt and a thirteen lb or bigger brisket anyday. There is plenty of time to cook large cuts of meat at comps unless your not showing up until Saturday at 8 in the morning. Seen that in the Grand Rapids contest BTW.

I don't see where cooking smaller cuts give you an advantage. Quite the opposite I would think! I like big butts and big briskets!
Psst..pass it on...Double D likes big butts.

I think the issue is that many teams partially butterfly a portion of the butt prior to cooking and remove that portion from the butt at a lower finishing temp than what is used for pulled or shredded.
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Unread 07-04-2008, 09:51 AM   #12
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Absolutely Illegal...

"... Pork shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted."

Is anyone having a problem understanding "shall not be parted"?

You begin with a intact piece of pork and must conclude cooking with the very same piece of pork intact as one piece.

But I beleive it is OK to could cook more than one butt at a time and conclude cooking them at different times to have various degrees of doneness.

The bottom line is that after you cut off a piece (part) of pork you cannot put any of it back on to cook.
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Unread 07-04-2008, 10:06 AM   #13
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I believe that the starting product, before trimming, must be 5 lbs.

But as they say in the song.... I LIKE BIGG BUTTS AND I CANNOT LIE!! why would ya want to start with a little one? Anyway..

my interpertation of the rule is that it must be cooked whole, the entire time. If you seperate a piece at 145, the rest of the butt cannot be returned to the pit and used in the contest. If you want to use parts of different cuts, cooked to different temps, and put them in the same box, then cook seperate butts.

I have discussed (with reps) that some cooks will significantly cut around and seperate the money muscle, but leave it attached to the rest of the butt by a small piece. I was even given a demonstration(by the rep/pitmaster) of how this is done... Technically, its legal. however, using the technique above, if you seperate the money muscle and cook it so it APPEARS to be cooked seperately, there is a risk that this would be caught by an experienced judge or judge/pitmaster and questioned. This happened at a contest and the cook had to explain himself. You are risking a DQ for cooking a tenderloin, or parts, or seperating. After seeing this done and the result, I would not take the risk. Additionally, IMO, its splitting the hairs and not the how the rule was intended.

Most of the time, in contests, I use boneless butts and cook at least 2. I rub the hell out of it inside and out and then tie it up. I cook each to different temps and slice one and pull/chunk the other. But they remain intact throught the cook. Once Cooked to the proper temps, you can seperate the parts later. But once seperated, they cant be returned to the pit seperatly.

a few times(not in a contest) I have cooked them openfaced/butterflyied to allow more surface area and bark formation.. and the money muscle cooks open faced. the one(for slicing)I pull at a lower temp, but it was cooked intact just splayed wide open. The result was a much faster cook, and alot of pieces with bark. I personally like the result better when its tied up.




My nickles worth.. Your milage may vary.
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Unread 07-04-2008, 11:35 AM   #14
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Parting that butt and cooking half to a different degree of doneness would be cheating IMO. Figuring out how to declare it legal seems like word play to me. We all know what the intent of the rule is and once you separate it into two pieces, it's parted.
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Unread 07-04-2008, 12:25 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbbq View Post
We all know what the intent of the rule is
Not to sound like a wise a$$, but what is the intent of the rule? I don't see a lot of difference in cooking a butt to 180 and another butt to 190 or cooking one butt and separating a part of it at 180 and cooking the rest to 190. What great spirit of competition is being violated?

I am not advocating one way or the other. I like the discussion because the rule seems poorly defined to me. I can read the rule one way and think that it's against the rules to dunk sliced or pulled pork in a hot/boiling bath of sauce because it will be "cooking" parted. I can read it another way and think that pork is "cooked" at 150 and anything after that is fair game.

It seems to me that a restrictive interpretation favors though of us with big cookers and ample resources. I can easily cook 8+ butts for a contest if needed. Those with smaller or fewer cookers will be limited.

And can we stop this underlying current that doing things somewhat differently is somehow skirting the rules or violating the spirit of competition? A rule is a rule. You either break it or you don't. There are not varying degrees of rules or hidden rules to play by. A team that "pushes the envelope" has just as much integrity as one that is more conservative as long as they do not cross the line and break the rule. If you think a rule is too liberal then lobby to have it changed but don't denegrate those teams that follow the rules differently than you do.
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