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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 06-19-2008, 04:19 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBQ View Post
One thing that I have always thought is that there should be a requirement that to become a judge, you have to have cooked at least one comp, maybe more.
Time out. First the contest is put on by the organizer not the KCBS. The KCBS has no control over who judges. An organizer can use zero CBJ's if they want.

The Reps now check to see how many CBJ's are there (membership cards) and will start to publish this so so can choose a contest with all CBJ's if you want.

So my question to you is how do your verify that a CBJ has cooked a contest? Do they have to be the head cook or like for MCBJ just work with a team. I have a number of good friends that mainly judge and some have cooekd with me but I don't think that really makes them appreciate just how much a cook puts into a contest.

Bottom line is you pay your money and take your chances.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 06:05 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueHwyBBQ View Post
Tony,

I like what you wrote and agree with much of it... with one exception...

"garnish is 1) optional and 2) used to help score an entry “up”, not to score it “down”"

I've seen boxes where the bbq was obscured by the garnish. When I have a hard time seeing the meat because of the garnish - that is a negative - and likely to be scored down.

Garnish or not, I don't care but does the garnish enhance or hide the meat?
Sauce or not, I don't care but does the sauce enhance or hide the flavor of the meat?

Scott
Scott,

You are absolutely right, the garnish/sauce should enhance, not hide or obscure. The meat should be the focus not the other stuff.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 06:21 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford View Post
...Besides I think your main complaint is not with the scoring system but how the judges apply it. So before throwing out the system lets try to educate people.

...Rather than cooking what you want why not try to cook what the judges might like. And pulled chicken isn't it.

Garnish - it's optional so why do teams spend 2-4 hours making all parsley boxes?

And I do like your logic - well done - send it to the KCBS and see what happens. Posting on Forums doesn't get very far.
Ford,

You are 1000% correct about educating the judges better which is one of my solutions.

But I have to disagree about cooking what the judges might like. I think this limits the atmosphere of competition, here's why... Judges primarily look for one thing (at the moment) and that is chicken thighs. Well, what if I make a very tender and juicy chicken breast? I don't want my entry scored down because its not what the judge is used to seeing - I want the judge to score my entry for what it is rather than what it is not.

As for garnish, it is optional - as such, there should be no impact to scoring if there isn't any. Yes, the entries should be presented well, but the meat is the focus. If garnish is that important to the KCBS then they should create a scoring category for "Use of Garnish" or something like that.

Lastly, I have submitted this to all the KCBS board members and I have gotten several very good responses. Nothing that indicates any changes will be made or even be considered, but they are classy enough to respond to a member and that is one reason I like the KCBS!

Thanks for your input and debate - keep it coming!
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Unread 06-19-2008, 07:43 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale P View Post
...You can put in chicken feet if you want, pulled, pieces, whatever but it has to look better than the competitions.

How are you gonna fit 6 whole chickens in that little box? Plus if you turn in whole or halves, which part does each Judge get? Leg or breast?
Well, I am passionate but not crazy... therefore, I will not be turning in chicken feet! I think the point is that the cooks should have some latitude for meat selection (within reason of course), and their selection/entry should be judged for what it is rather than what the judges are accustomed to seeing. To me, this enhances the spirit and atmosphere of competition.

As for what will fit in the box, the KCBS rules are clear that there must be at least six (6) separately identifiable pieces of meat. Now, chicken wholes or halves just don't seem reasonable for obvious reasons; however, if I decided to turn in all breasts or, all wings or, all legs, why should they be scored down because they are not thighs or what the judges are used to seeing? In fact, the rules state that Cornish Hens are legal, but cooks don't turn them in because the judges will score the entry down because of what it is not - thighs! That is just plain wrong and it stifles the atmosphere of competition. what if someone makes a Cornish hen that absolutely rocks? Well, because the judges want to see thighs, it is instantly out of the running! That again is just plain wrong!

As a cook, my job is to make great BBQ for the judges to sample. As a judge, my job is to fairly judge the legal entry that is put in front of me without bias and to do otherwise is a disservice to the cooking teams and the spirit of competition.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 07:57 AM   #20
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Nicely written. You made a lot of good poins. I do think that the scoring metod would greatly increase the time to judge each category. Your ideas are definately worth consideration. Why don't you present it to the board
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Unread 06-19-2008, 07:58 AM   #21
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Tony, good luck with this. I don't want to rain on your passion here, but don't hold your breath with the KCBS Board. Comment cards were beta tested last year and met favorably by the judges, teams, organizers and the several of the reps that tested them. It was apparent that the membership wanted this type of program implemented. The Board ignored the membership and voted it down.

In my opinion KCBS is out for only one thing when it comes to CBJ's and that is increased membership. They push for classes to be held, and "graduate" scores of CBJ's with very little to no follow up or oversight of them. In fact they demand that the organizers of contests ensure they are truely CBJ's. To me this is like a lot of people that bring children into the world and expect society raise them.

The current system is not broken when it comes to judging, but it is by no means perfect either. Your ideas have merit and hopefully someday they will be looked at seriously and implemented. Until then Candied Thighs anyone?
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Unread 06-19-2008, 07:59 AM   #22
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I have a quick question that is sort of on the same topic. Does every catagory a cook turns in get judged by the same table? The same group of judges.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 08:09 AM   #23
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It does not.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 08:11 AM   #24
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No. As long as you have 24 teams your products should not end up on the same table.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 08:33 AM   #25
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I am a CBJ and the first time i judged a KCBS contest we were told not to give a lot of nines. They didn't want judges scoring to high. This affected my judgment a lot, especially in the taste category. The first piece was very good but i didn't score to high because if i give it a eight and the next five are better then what, they don't want nines and they can't be all eights.I think we need to taste all the entries and maybe even take another taste to be sure before we score them. I did judge one more time after that and still did not feel comfortable with my choices and i don't think i will judge again.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 08:41 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmoker View Post
I am a CBJ and the first time i judged a KCBS contest we were told not to give a lot of nines. They didn't want judges scoring to high. This affected my judgment a lot, especially in the taste category. The first piece was very good but i didn't score to high because if i give it a eight and the next five are better then what, they don't want nines and they can't be all eights.I think we need to taste all the entries and maybe even take another taste to be sure before we score them. I did judge one more time after that and still did not feel comfortable with my choices and i don't think i will judge again.
Isn't this exactly what you are told not to do while judging is compare each entry to the next. I thought you where suppose to judge each entry on it's own. Therfor if you judge six ribs and each one is excellent than each one would get a nine no matter what the other one's where like. That is also bogus that they would tell you not to give out very many nine's and in my oppinion is complete crap.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 09:23 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC PIG ASSASSINS View Post
I like red, you like yellow. This becomes a lottery not a competition. What I think would be great is if everyone had to use the same meat, rub ingredients, and sauce ingredients and everything had to be made on sight. I love the people at competitions and the fun that is why we go, but there aren't true competitions, there are too many teams and judges. It is hard to say this teams is better than this teams when we had two different pallets eating our food and there are sixty teams. You make a great point, lets turn these into competitions not lotteries.

Entry fee should include
two racks
one brisket
one shoulder
dozen thighs

Basic rub ingredients, let teams mix and measure themselves.

Basic sauce ingedients and let the teams mix and measure themselves.

Limit the comps to 15 teams, this will show who can really BBQ.

If there are sixty teams that want to enter, make brackets and run four different comps at one sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OC PIG ASSASSINS View Post
Is that much to much to ask, to cook?
I do not think that is too much to ask to cook. But I feel it creates and even more unfair situation than the one currently in place.

The first problem I see is with the meat
1. Not all meat is created equal. So even though the cut of meat comes from the same packer and case there will still be inferior pieces. The pork butt may have a huge gash in it. The brisket may may be super thick on one end and paper thin on the other.
2.Certain pieces are just better than others. I may mean more marbling or fat and when I got to the store to select my meat it is up to me to get the best cut it is not up to the contest organizer to pick the meat.
3.People also have personal preference on what cuts that buy and what brand they use. For example I like to cook baby back ribs with the methods I use I find I get better results. Not that there is any thing wrong with other choices it is just what I like to do. When the contest organizer hands out meat people are deprived from choosing what results in the best product for their methods.
4.Also I am not sure if you are familiar with competitions but many team cook greater amounts of what is listed so they can select the best product.

Next is with the sauce and rub ingredients
1. Many people have a wide array of items they put in there rub and sauce when only given a limited selection they may not have the ingredients needed to produce the best product.
2.What do you do about injections and marinades there is a wide array of things that fall into this category.
3.With a limited selection of ingredients teams cannot shine to there full potential.
This is a bbq comp not iron chef

Last the brackets
1. KCBS has does not do comparative judging therefor who ever had the best score wins.
2. Also how do you divide the brackets that it is fair? Would it be fair if in one bracket there are a bunch of big name teams and in another there a bunch of no names.

If comps were run like the way you suggested I know I would not participate,

Chris
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Unread 06-19-2008, 10:05 AM   #28
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These are just questions for me, I don't compete. Does a judge have any annual or bi-annual classes or test they need to do? Is it where they get certified in say 1990 and try to remember all the rules today? Can they take 5 years off then come back like nothing happened? I work in the medical field and we have continuing education we have to do every year.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 10:12 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radmanct View Post
These are just questions for me, I don't compete. Does a judge have any annual or bi-annual classes or test they need to do? Is it where they get certified in say 1990 and try to remember all the rules today? Can they take 5 years off then come back like nothing happened? I work in the medical field and we have continuing education we have to do every year.
As long as they keep their KCBS Membership up to date, they are CBJ's. No further training is needed or even offered. Althought they can "audit" any CBJ class they want.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 10:29 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunter View Post
Well, I am passionate but not crazy... therefore, I will not be turning in chicken feet! .

Add what is wrong with chicken feet?

P2010058.jpg


I like what you have proposed for changes so far.
I would say as far as garnish, get rid of it. There is no need for it so if all teams didn't use garnish then it should even out the playing field as far as appearance goes.
Taste and Tenderness will always be a subjective issue anyway you put it. IMO. I started cooking what the judges wanted and started doing better. I'm not saying its right, but if you want to win you better be willing to make adjustments.
I guess I see it as, either you change or they change and you can do something about one of those.
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