Fairness In KCBS Judging

thunter

thunter

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Well, at the risk of creating a commotion I decided to write an article that expresses my concerns and observations about how KCBS judging is done. Please note that these are only my opinions; however, I am passionate about them.

Fairness In KCBS Judging
 
Tony: I read your article and you bring up some good points. My first suggestion is if you really feel this strongly about it, I would run for the board and see if you can make changes. I am all for making changes in this sport to make it better. I am not going to agree or disagree with what you have to say in your article other than you really bring up some great points. This I hope will make an interesting thread to read. You will get those that have discussed this a million times and say your crazy for even bringing this up "again" and you will have those that may comment and bring some interesting deabate to the table.
 
Just Pulin' Pork said:
Tony: I read your article and you bring up some good points. My first suggestion is if you really feel this strongly about it, I would run for the board and see if you can make changes. I am all for making changes in this sport to make it better. I am not going to agree or disagree with what you have to say in your article other than you really bring up some great points. This I hope will make an interesting thread to read. You will get those that have discussed this a million times and say your crazy for even bringing this up "again" and you will have those that may comment and bring some interesting deabate to the table.
Click to expand...

Well, I got the idea of writing something down because I have been in the middle of some debate about how judges view entries. Maybe some good discussion will come out of this and hopefully, something that may benefit us all in the KCBS.
 
Well thought out and well written, some great points made. A good read.
 
Tony, I can see that you are serious about your ideas and imho you have some good ideas. But I also see some flaws in some of them too. Simple things like choosing what you put in the box. You can put in chicken feet if you want, pulled, pieces, whatever but it has to look better than the competitions. How are you gonna fit 6 whole chickens in that little box? :rolleyes: Plus if you turn in whole or halves, which part does each Judge get? Leg or breast?

Garnish. I used to think it was a waste but now I think if done right, it looks better with it. JMHO

I dont feel that the system is that flawed now because the same folks usually win. That tells me what I really need to know.

Tony, that was a good read and I appreciate your opinion..
 
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Well first off there's no use in suggesting changing the scoring system unless you get a lot of new people on the BOD. Believe me people have been beating this dead horse for a long time now.

Besides I think your main complaint is not with the scoring system but how the judges apply it. So before throwing out the system lets try to educate people. Now that takes time and even then there will be wild cards out there. Always have been. Now if you can get judges to put aside personal preferences then that's great but I think unrealistic. Rather than cooking what you want why not try to cook what the judges might like. And pulled chicken isn't it.

Garnish - it's optional so why do teams spend 2-4 hours making all parsley boxes? Because when that lid opens and you have a full box of meat showcased with perfect garnish to frame the meat they say wow I want to eat that. It's a Kodak moment. And that means you already have above average to excellent scores for taste and tenderness. Or lay it flat in the bottom of the box so it's harder to see and has no contrast with the green color and see what you get. Question - why do high end restaurants use garnish on their plates?

And I do like your logic - well done - send it to the KCBS and see what happens. Posting on Forums doesn't get very far.
 
I Agree

I like red, you like yellow. This becomes a lottery not a competition. What I think would be great is if everyone had to use the same meat, rub ingredients, and sauce ingredients and everything had to be made on sight. I love the people at competitions and the fun that is why we go, but there aren't true competitions, there are too many teams and judges. It is hard to say this teams is better than this teams when we had two different pallets eating our food and there are sixty teams. You make a great point, lets turn these into competitions not lotteries.

Entry fee should include
two racks
one brisket
one shoulder
dozen thighs

Basic rub ingredients, let teams mix and measure themselves.

Basic sauce ingedients and let the teams mix and measure themselves.

Limit the comps to 15 teams, this will show who can really BBQ.

If there are sixty teams that want to enter, make brackets and run four different comps at one sight.
 
OC PIG ASSASSINS said:
I like red, you like yellow. This becomes a lottery not a competition. What I think would be great is if everyone had to use the same meat, rub ingredients, and sauce ingredients and everything had to be made on sight. I love the people at competitions and the fun that is why we go, but there aren't true competitions, there are too many teams and judges. It is hard to say this teams is better than this teams when we had two different pallets eating our food and there are sixty teams. You make a great point, lets turn these into competitions not lotteries.

Entry fee should include
two racks
one brisket
one shoulder
dozen thighs

Basic rub ingredients, let teams mix and measure themselves.

Basic sauce ingedients and let the teams mix and measure themselves.

Limit the comps to 15 teams, this will show who can really BBQ.

If there are sixty teams that want to enter, make brackets and run four different comps at one sight.
Click to expand...


You cannot be serious?:?:
 
Tony - Well thought out even if some agree that small tweaks might be necessary to tighten it up a bit..

Hopefully, time permits for you to submit this article for consideration to appear in the KCBS Bullsheet and National BBQ News. Although it may not have an immediate impact, sending along to the BOD of KCBS can't hurt either.
 
OC PIG ASSASSINS said:
Limit the comps to 15 teams, this will show who can really BBQ.

If there are sixty teams that want to enter, make brackets and run four different comps at one sight.
Click to expand...


I think I saw this episode of "Organizer's Worst Nightmares".:wink::lol:
 
Well thought out and written Tony.

This speaks volumes:

In other words, some judges score entries based on what the entry is not, instead of scoring the entry for what it is!
Click to expand...

One thing that I have always thought is that there should be a requirement that to become
a judge, you have to have cooked at least one comp, maybe more.

It's a pet peeve of mine when I hear judges talking about things after the entries are scored
and cards turned in and you know right away that they have never cooked a comp because
they have no idea just how much money, hard work and time goes into getting that
box in front of them.
 
Tony,

I like what you wrote and agree with much of it... with one exception...

"garnish is 1) optional and 2) used to help score an entry “up”, not to score it “down”"

I've seen boxes where the bbq was obscured by the garnish. When I have a hard time seeing the meat because of the garnish - that is a negative - and likely to be scored down.

Garnish or not, I don't care but does the garnish enhance or hide the meat?
Sauce or not, I don't care but does the sauce enhance or hide the flavor of the meat?

Scott
 
ZBQ said:
One thing that I have always thought is that there should be a requirement that to become a judge, you have to have cooked at least one comp, maybe more.
Click to expand...

Time out. First the contest is put on by the organizer not the KCBS. The KCBS has no control over who judges. An organizer can use zero CBJ's if they want.

The Reps now check to see how many CBJ's are there (membership cards) and will start to publish this so so can choose a contest with all CBJ's if you want.

So my question to you is how do your verify that a CBJ has cooked a contest? Do they have to be the head cook or like for MCBJ just work with a team. I have a number of good friends that mainly judge and some have cooekd with me but I don't think that really makes them appreciate just how much a cook puts into a contest.

Bottom line is you pay your money and take your chances.
 
BlueHwyBBQ said:
Tony,

I like what you wrote and agree with much of it... with one exception...

"garnish is 1) optional and 2) used to help score an entry “up”, not to score it “down”"

I've seen boxes where the bbq was obscured by the garnish. When I have a hard time seeing the meat because of the garnish - that is a negative - and likely to be scored down.

Garnish or not, I don't care but does the garnish enhance or hide the meat?
Sauce or not, I don't care but does the sauce enhance or hide the flavor of the meat?

Scott
Click to expand...

Scott,

You are absolutely right, the garnish/sauce should enhance, not hide or obscure. The meat should be the focus not the other stuff.
 
Ford said:
...Besides I think your main complaint is not with the scoring system but how the judges apply it. So before throwing out the system lets try to educate people.

...Rather than cooking what you want why not try to cook what the judges might like. And pulled chicken isn't it.

Garnish - it's optional so why do teams spend 2-4 hours making all parsley boxes?

And I do like your logic - well done - send it to the KCBS and see what happens. Posting on Forums doesn't get very far.
Click to expand...

Ford,

You are 1000% correct about educating the judges better which is one of my solutions.

But I have to disagree about cooking what the judges might like. I think this limits the atmosphere of competition, here's why... Judges primarily look for one thing (at the moment) and that is chicken thighs. Well, what if I make a very tender and juicy chicken breast? I don't want my entry scored down because its not what the judge is used to seeing - I want the judge to score my entry for what it is rather than what it is not.

As for garnish, it is optional - as such, there should be no impact to scoring if there isn't any. Yes, the entries should be presented well, but the meat is the focus. If garnish is that important to the KCBS then they should create a scoring category for "Use of Garnish" or something like that.

Lastly, I have submitted this to all the KCBS board members and I have gotten several very good responses. Nothing that indicates any changes will be made or even be considered, but they are classy enough to respond to a member and that is one reason I like the KCBS! :-D

Thanks for your input and debate - keep it coming! :-D
 
Dale P said:
...You can put in chicken feet if you want, pulled, pieces, whatever but it has to look better than the competitions.

How are you gonna fit 6 whole chickens in that little box? :rolleyes: Plus if you turn in whole or halves, which part does each Judge get? Leg or breast?
Click to expand...

Well, I am passionate but not crazy... therefore, I will not be turning in chicken feet! :lol: I think the point is that the cooks should have some latitude for meat selection (within reason of course), and their selection/entry should be judged for what it is rather than what the judges are accustomed to seeing. To me, this enhances the spirit and atmosphere of competition.

As for what will fit in the box, the KCBS rules are clear that there must be at least six (6) separately identifiable pieces of meat. Now, chicken wholes or halves just don't seem reasonable for obvious reasons; however, if I decided to turn in all breasts or, all wings or, all legs, why should they be scored down because they are not thighs or what the judges are used to seeing? In fact, the rules state that Cornish Hens are legal, but cooks don't turn them in because the judges will score the entry down because of what it is not - thighs! That is just plain wrong and it stifles the atmosphere of competition. what if someone makes a Cornish hen that absolutely rocks? Well, because the judges want to see thighs, it is instantly out of the running! That again is just plain wrong!

As a cook, my job is to make great BBQ for the judges to sample. As a judge, my job is to fairly judge the legal entry that is put in front of me without bias and to do otherwise is a disservice to the cooking teams and the spirit of competition.
 
Nicely written. You made a lot of good poins. I do think that the scoring metod would greatly increase the time to judge each category. Your ideas are definately worth consideration. Why don't you present it to the board
 
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