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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 10-19-2007, 07:17 AM   #1
Sledneck
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Default A judges perspective

http://www.mightymac.org/07americanroyalBBQ.htm
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Unread 10-19-2007, 07:38 AM   #2
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That is an interesting commentary. I thought it was very intersting that he even thought that the judging was almost unfair and very subjective. I am surprised that he didn't talk about how good the que was though.
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Unread 10-19-2007, 07:55 AM   #3
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I thought the same thing. Why would you make up this whole page and not discuss what you ate?
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Unread 10-19-2007, 08:09 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledneck View Post
I thought the same thing. Why would you make up this whole page and not discuss what you ate?
from the article "...and I came home with two 1 quart bags full of BBQ."
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Unread 10-19-2007, 12:24 PM   #5
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QN, that got me, too. I really wish they'd rule that judge's are not permitted to take food from the judging area. There's plenty of barbecue they can get from teams if they ask, after judging is over.
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Unread 10-19-2007, 09:41 PM   #6
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This was posted at another place too. Damned judges! Don't EVEN mention the food but talk about taking home a half gallon of food. Damn it, KCBS, ban this chit! While his motives don't seem to be to take home food, there's no way he could have collected that much food and still took a fair sampling of the cook's meat he was presented.
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Unread 10-19-2007, 10:59 PM   #7
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Not to slam the KCBS here but.................guess thats why I havent renewed my membership. Maybe growing pains, not sure but I read this so called judges perspective on judging. More interested in getting leftovers to take home.
Hell maybe he cannot cook. But that seemed to be his justification for being a judge. Just plain wrong IMHO.

Hell I can do decent Q, but have no aspiratations to become a judge. Sure as hell dont want to load up quart bags and haul home.

There are some problems that must be ironed out soon. If not the association might be in a pickle. There might be another newly formed group that might come along and make things proper. I dont know, but I sure dont like things the way they are.
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Unread 10-20-2007, 04:40 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbqbull View Post
Not to slam the KCBS here but.................guess thats why I havent renewed my membership. Maybe growing pains, not sure but I read this so called judges perspective on judging. More interested in getting leftovers to take home.
Hell maybe he cannot cook. But that seemed to be his justification for being a judge. Just plain wrong IMHO.

Hell I can do decent Q, but have no aspiratations to become a judge. Sure as hell dont want to load up quart bags and haul home.

There are some problems that must be ironed out soon. If not the association might be in a pickle. There might be another newly formed group that might come along and make things proper. I dont know, but I sure dont like things the way they are.
This sounds like a real cop out for not re-joining the KCBS. The writer never said he was judging for the left over BBQ. As a matter of fact I have never heard any of the better teams that win all the time complain about the judges getting to take home food. The writer's point saying that it's not fair because the judging is subjective is the part that that some teams can't handle. They can't handle the thought that someone may not think their Que is as good as their neighnors or their relatives think. Some teams really can't grasp the concept that judges are Humans with different likes and dislikes. The KCBS has nothing to do with that.
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Unread 10-20-2007, 06:09 AM   #9
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The way I read that article, he is only their for the food.

Does anyone know if he has ever been on the other side with us?

Does he know what it takes to make that "Q" for him to taste and take home? Like some of us staying up all night tending the fire, etc. I bet he is asleep all night every night and doesn't even have a clue.

I think it should mandatory that EVERY judge has to be with a team at least 6 comps before they are allowed to judge. Maybe not the same team every time, but at least 6 events. And not sleep all night, be there and see what goes on, do what needs to be done.

They would have a different perspective on true "Q".

Again, my $0.01 worth.
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Unread 10-20-2007, 06:52 AM   #10
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I have been trying for a long time to figure out what a judge gains by cooking with a team.
Is it so that they will "appreciate" the effort and expense by the teams and score higher?
Those would seem to be "pity points" if given for any reason other than the quality of the entry.
That flies in the face of "objectivity" on the part of a judge.
The effort and the expense have absolutely no bearing on the score given to an entry.

Now, I can think of one way to help out "Non cook" judges.
Allow any judge who is not judging at an event to sample meat from several teams just after the team does turn-in for a category. Not a whole new presentation, but a sample of the turned in meat.
They could complete their own little scoring record and then go back later to compare what they would have given with the reality of the scores actually given by their peers in the tent.
This would allow more samples and not just one sample from the team they happen to be cooking with.

That would help, but cooking with a team has no MAJOR benefit that I can identify.

I cook and judge. I "learn" more usable information for our cooking from the judging than I ever did for the reverse.

Am I missing something?

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Unread 10-20-2007, 07:04 AM   #11
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Kap,

I haven't taken a judging class nor can I. I am allergic to pork, so it would be some what of a waste of my time and money. Maybe I should though.

From my take, for what it is worth, there is a lot of controversy on this issue as well.

Here is my take on it. Correct me if I am wrong, please. I will use the term he only for simplicity knowing there are a lot of women also judging.

If a person takes the class, and passes. He can now judge.

If the "judge" loves boiled and dipped "Q", but not the true low and slow "Q", how will he score it?

How does he really know what a true "6" is?

Will he score true smoked, let's say, ribs lower because there is smoke flavor?

Will he score pulled pork lower because he doesn't like vinegar on his?

And the list goes on. I know they are not suppose to, but in my honest opinion, I believe there is some of personal "tastes" used to score "Q".

I know there is going to be an extremely hard way to make a "6" style "Q" at judging classes, but how does one know for sure when and where to go from there.

I still think if they have to "cook" with a team some, they would appreciate what is going on. And this would give the true non-"Q" knowledgeable person some insight.

Like I said, I hope my opinion is a little clearer now.

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Unread 10-20-2007, 10:22 AM   #12
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Keep at it kids, pretty soon you'll piss an moan about judges and wether or not there there for free food or not and like me you'll start to loose the desire.
And you can all be judged by some guy that happened to walk by when the rep is lookin to fill seats.
Good luck with that.
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Unread 10-20-2007, 05:04 PM   #13
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I agree with the Kap'n. There's no practical reason for a mandatory comp cook to be qualified as a judge. Even though there's a lot of behind the scenes action that many are unaware of.

Here's something to consider: KCBS is a growing organization. The more people who take the class and become certified, the more qualified people we have sitting at the tables. The higher and more costly barrier to become certified, the less people there will be willing to make the investment in time and money.

I think its funny how the judges get blamed all the time. When my wife and I became KCBC CBJs, we were there only to learn the criteria. At the end of the class, we were told that ONE person prepared all the entries, and they were all the same. WOW! The numbers were all over the place?!?!

From that moment forward, I realized that there is a framework in place, but in the end it is very subjective to what that person thinks when that piece of meat is in their mouth. Our focus really became centered around OUR performance, and doing the best that WE can. That way, there's nothing to feel bad about in the end. Scores be damned.

I believe that the KCBS Double Blind Judging is the most fair and reliable method of judging today. Not to say its perfect either, but I trust it completely.

Recently, there was some friction on my team regarding our performance at a contest. We didn't get any calls, and after getting the score sheet, some of my teammates began mother farking the judges. I told them to cool it. We all tasted and agreed on the turn ins. We all had confidence in our choices. The judges didn't feel the same way, and thats okay. We had a good time, and as always learned some things.

I think that the teams who stand on the top of the podium consistently, know exactly how to COOK their entries from start to finish, and can do it no matter the weather, alignment of stars, or level of intoxication. Which shifts the responsibility back to the cooks.

I've seen a couple teams win many times. Their entries aren't being judged by the same judges, who's to say which judge is certified, and which is not. See what I mean? The Top teams know their stuff, and they are consistent.

Anyone who doesn't have faith in any competitive rule book, shouldn't be involved. Period.

The article was a little lackluster. No mention of the entries was diappointing. Maybe he wasn't comfortable sharing his thoughts on what was judged, or maybe he thought that this information was proprietary. Who knows, we'll just have to speculate.
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Unread 10-20-2007, 05:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ModelMaker View Post
Keep at it kids, pretty soon you'll piss an moan about judges and wether or not there there for free food or not and like me you'll start to loose the desire.
And you can all be judged by some guy that happened to walk by when the rep is lookin to fill seats.
Good luck with that.
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Well said, and the Giggler made great points also!

The reality is that there are lots of folks with no "Ill-Will" trying their best to render scores.
Is it perfect, NO!

But, it is all we have.

In my limited Judging experience with FBA and KCBS, I have only encountered ONE judge who was not trying to be fair, at least in their mind. She had an addiction to sauce, and lots of it! The more, the better!
But, she has been "uninvited" to judge now, to the best of my knowledge.

The other underlying argument is the "coolers".
I do not give a damn about that! Period, end of discussion for me.
Some cooks feel that the leftovers are the reason for judging---SO WHAT!
As long as the Judge renders well though out scores--who cares

Keep on hammering--Judges will go away.

TIM
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Unread 10-20-2007, 05:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kapn View Post
That would help, but cooking with a team has no MAJOR benefit that I can identify.
The KCBS agrees with you Tim.

Just read in the October issue that the requirement to cook on a team has been removed for Master Judge certification.

I also can't see what would be gained, other than possible pity points as you mentioned.
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