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Q-talk *ON TOPIC ONLY* QUALITY ON TOPIC discussion of Backyard BBQ, grilling, equipment and outdoor cookin' . ** Other cooking techniques are welcomed for when your cookin' in the kitchen. Post your hints, tips, tricks & techniques, success, failures, but stay on topic and watch for that hijacking.


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Old 08-14-2014, 09:55 AM   #1
WareZdaBeef
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Default whats the secret to bark?

I was at the deli counter the other day looking at the roast beef and pastrami and noticed how rediculously black and dark the bark was on them.

I just so happen to have like a crap load of corned beef briskets in the freezer from last st patty's day sale and need to use them up. Im thinking pastrami is in order.

Now ive done pastrami before with "eh so so" results so i started looking up recipes and watched some videos of how katz deli does it. This is where things get strange.

Katz claims there brisket is rubbed, then smoked, then boiled , then steamed, then sliced.

Now i can see the smoking part would start off the bark formation , but boiling? Im not talking about boil in bag, im talking dropped into a big vat of boiling water. How the hell is the rub/bark not falling off? Ive seen pictures of them slicing some pastrami and the bark on those briskets are some of the best ive ever seen.

Whats going on here, and why can i not find any info on how katz and commercial deli roast beef gets that crazy thick black bark.

So far i think i narrowed down the black color to caramel coloring like gravy master and kitchen bouquet browning and seasoning liquid.

Still havent figured out the crust/bark.

Anyone got any real info on this?
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:11 AM   #2
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The best bark is created by a thin layer of fat that has rendered down and married up with a spice rub and has become a sticky, somewhat crunchy shell. You can use cooking oil to help the process and I like to use peanut oil on brisket, butts and ribs (a Johnny Trigg trick) before the rub goes on them. The oil helps the bark production and also releases the natural oils found in most spices (spices are largely oil soluble), so it not only helps get a bark but also adds more flavor from the spice rub.
Another thing to do is to NOT use foil too early in the cooking process, the steaming action is going to kill your bark. If you like to use foil wait until you have a bark before you wrap. I use butcher paper rather than foil (because it's a LOT more bark friendly) when I wrap unless I'm going for drippings rather than bark, it just depends on what I'm doing at the time.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:13 AM   #3
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It comes from carmelization of the sugar in the ' Strami Rub. I ait no Kat but I am a Kool Dawg. I when I do Fauxstarmi with CB I apply the dry cure and marinate it over two days. Then I rinse it and soak it for a few hrs before applying the final rub that has some LBS in it. When that goods old Tx post oak in Buhela's box stars givin up the Sweet Blue you get that black bark. I keep my pit at 275 and finish smoking at 140- 150 IT. then a long rest to get cold. then into the DO on a trivet with a beer( Lone Star) in the bottom and steam it to 175-185. Then wrap in Plastic wrap & foil and hold it at 180 for 3-4 hrs to break down the collagen. The bark stays in tact and you get nice tender 'strami that you can slice as thin or thick as you like.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:27 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bludawg View Post
It comes from carmelization of the sugar in the ' Strami Rub.
Yep, sugar content in your rub will greatly effect bark production as well. In fact if you have too much sugar it can burn and your meat will resemble a meteorite! LOL!!!
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:53 AM   #5
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You got some great advice above...
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:09 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by darkoozy View Post
You got some great advice above...
Yes good advice. But nobody has answered my question yet. Or debunked this notion that "boiling" in water after smoking will still produce some insane bark/crust.

Also, i still need to know how Deli roast beef has a thick bark/crust thats black as night and no fat cap either.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:27 AM   #7
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I can tell you from Boiling my ribs before I foil wrap them with BBQ sauce and put on the Gasbelcer 5000 it's hard to get the bark to form but they an be ate with a Spoon & a Straw
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:33 PM   #8
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"Katz claims there brisket is rubbed, then smoked, then boiled , then steamed, then sliced."

Possible they're messin' with you on the order of appearance............

OR....................


from Katz's :

"We only select the best cuts of beef for our corned beef, pastrami, brisket, and other fine foods. Our corned beef and pastrami is cured using a slower method, which best flavors the meat, without injecting chemicals, water, or other additives to speed the process.
Our finished product can take up to a full 30 days to cure, while commercially prepared corned beef is often pressure-injected (or "pumped") to cure in 36 hours. Yep, you read that right. 30 days vs. 36 hours. Now, which sounds like the better meat to you?"

http://katzsdelicatessen.com/whats-cookin/


Possible the curing so ingrains the rub into the meat, it will stay no matter what.............


Here's a link about commercial R B, pastrami, C B.......

Saag's :

http://www.saags.com/faq.asp
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1buckie View Post
"Katz claims there brisket is rubbed, then smoked, then boiled , then steamed, then sliced."

Possible they're messin' with you on the order of appearance............

OR....................


from Katz's :

"We only select the best cuts of beef for our corned beef, pastrami, brisket, and other fine foods. Our corned beef and pastrami is cured using a slower method, which best flavors the meat, without injecting chemicals, water, or other additives to speed the process.
Our finished product can take up to a full 30 days to cure, while commercially prepared corned beef is often pressure-injected (or "pumped") to cure in 36 hours. Yep, you read that right. 30 days vs. 36 hours. Now, which sounds like the better meat to you?"

http://katzsdelicatessen.com/whats-cookin/


Possible the curing so ingrains the rub into the meat, it will stay no matter what.............


Here's a link about commercial R B, pastrami, C B.......

Saag's :

http://www.saags.com/faq.asp
The info i got on smoking first, then boiling was from here.
http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/05/h...-pastrami.html
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:33 PM   #10
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A thick bark is part of the meat and won't wash off for nuthin. I push limits in the name of learning, there was now washing the bark off of this brisket.



Or even this one



I prefer a slightly more subtle bark but you have to cross the line to know where it is.
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WareZdaBeef View Post
Yes good advice. But nobody has answered my question yet. Or debunked this notion that "boiling" in water after smoking will still produce some insane bark/crust.

Also, i still need to know how Deli roast beef has a thick bark/crust thats black as night and no fat cap either.
Baltimore pit beef looks like that



She was a nice med rare.
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:52 PM   #12
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That some really nice bark you got there. Care to share your methods?

Also, pit beef is usually done over a hot fire grill. Also no smoke involved. So low and slow doesnt seem to apply.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WareZdaBeef View Post
That some really nice bark you got there. Care to share your methods?

Also, pit beef is usually done over a hot fire grill. Also no smoke involved. So low and slow doesnt seem to apply.
Sure but like I said that much bark can be a little much. My offset gives more bark than the wsm so on the offset it really just I light oil coat and a salt and pepper based rub.


I call it flash powder as named by my fellow brethren. It puts killer bark on everything, even ribs.


1 part Kosher salt
1 part coarse salt
3.5 parts Coarse black pepper
1 Lemon pepper
1 turbinado sugar
1 smoked paprika
.5 chipolte
.5 cayenne

I just put a light coat on before I fire up the smoker. If the color gets to be too much it's time to wrap in paper. On the wsm I usually need a slather, mustard and pickle juice works. Put a can or stainless bowl under the brisket for a bit. Again wrap if necessary.

This is actually my ideal bark




As for the pit beef yea that's just grilled over direct heat rotating often but it is sooooo good and has that killer crust.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:42 PM   #14
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This is an interesting thread by Boshizzle:

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=189469
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Old 08-14-2014, 03:45 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ShencoSmoke View Post
This is an interesting thread by Boshizzle:

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=189469
Very interesting indeed! I will have to try this.

Thanks for the link.
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