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Q-talk *ON TOPIC ONLY* QUALITY ON TOPIC discussion of Backyard BBQ, grilling, Equipment and just outdoor cookin' in general, hints, tips, tricks & techniques, success, failures... but stay on topic. And watch for that hijacking.


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Old 06-19-2014, 10:57 AM   #16
Fwismoker
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LOL....NO it's not possible nor is a good idea.

It would never get to the temp needed for collagen break down.
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Old 06-19-2014, 11:25 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bludawg View Post
I'd say it is absolutely possible providing that the pork is well sealed tightly in a roaster. When you think about it it is not much different then using an immersion circulator for sueV. The pork will stew in it own juices as long as there is moisture present braising will continue and the more moisture the the higher the efficiency.
This right here is the truth. Soude Vide cooking is much different than regular cooking. The food safe temperatures also adjust with the length of time being held at a lower temperature. I can't say for sure if that is what she is doing or if it is safe. However you can cook pork at 140 degrees safely and where it is not completely dried out.
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Old 06-19-2014, 11:39 AM   #18
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except that in the OP, he said the lady said she cooked it in an oven.
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Old 06-19-2014, 11:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aawa View Post
This right here is the truth. Soude Vide cooking is much different than regular cooking. The food safe temperatures also adjust with the length of time being held at a lower temperature. I can't say for sure if that is what she is doing or if it is safe. However you can cook pork at 140 degrees safely and where it is not completely dried out.
Except connective tissue isn't gonna break down @ 140* ...don't care if it's been there for a week.

Someone can feel free to try it and prove me wrong but it won't happen till the 160's me thinking....also like stated it was in the oven not sous vide
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Old 06-19-2014, 11:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fwismoker View Post
Except connective tissue isn't gonna break down @ 140* ...don't care if it's been there for a week.

Someone can feel free to try it and prove me wrong but it won't happen till the 160's me thinking....also like stated it was in the oven not sous vide

if this site is correct, you are correct, 160....

http://www.scienceofcooking.com/meat/slow_cooking1.htm


COOKING MEAT TEMPERATURES
105F/40C - 122F/50C --Calpains begin to denature and lose activity till around 105F, cathepsains at 122F. Since enzyme activity increases up to those temperatures, slow cooking can provide a significant aging effect during cooking. Meat should however be quickly seared or blanched first to kill surface microbes.
120F/50C -- Meat develops a white opacity as heat sensitive myosin denatures. Coagulation produces large enough clumps to scatter light. Red meat turns pink.
Rare Meats: 120F/50Cis the early stages of juiciness in meats as the the protein myosin, begins to coagulate . This lends each cell some solidity and the meat some firmness. As the myosin molecules bond to each other they begin to squeeze out water molecules that separated them. Water then collects around the solidifyed protein core and is squeezed out of the cell by connective tissue. At this temperature meat is considered rare and when sliced juices will break through weak spots in the connective tissue

140F/60C -- Red myoglobin begins to denature into tan colored hemichrome. Meat turns from pink to brown-grey color.
140F/60C -- Meat suddely releases lots of juice, shrinks noticebly, and becomes chewy as a result of collagen denaturing which squeezes out liquids.
Medium -- Well Meats: Collagen shrinks as the meat tmeperature rises to 140/60 more of the protein coagulates and cells become more seggregated into a solid core and surrounding liquid as the meat gets progressively firmer and moister. At 140-150 the meat suddenly releases lots of juices, shrinks noticeably and becomes chewier as a result of collagen shrinkage. Meat served at this temperature is considered medium and begins to change from juicy to dry.

160F/70C -- Connective tissue collagen begins to dissolve to gelatin. Melting of collagen starts to accelerate at 160F and continues rapidly up to 180F.
Well Done Slow Cooked Meats: Falling apart tenderness collagen turns to gelatin at 160/70. The meat gets dryer, but at 160F the connective tissues containing collagen begins to dissolve into gelatin. With time muscle fibers that had been held tightly together begin to easily spread apart. Although the fibers are still very stiff and dry the meat appears more tender since the gelatins provide succulence.

NOTES: At 140F changes are caused by the denaturing of collagen in the cells. Meat served at this temperature med-rare is changing from juicy to dry. At 160F/ 70C connective tissue collagen begins to dissolve to gelatin. This however is a very lengthy process. The fibers are still stiff and dry but meat seems more tender. Source: Harold McGee -- On Food and Cooking
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Old 06-19-2014, 12:24 PM   #21
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Can an oven even do 140 degrees. The lowest my oven will do at home is 185.
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Old 06-19-2014, 01:28 PM   #22
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I do not know much about soude vide cooking, so I don't know what is 100% possible and what isn't possible.

I also do not know the science behind the collagen breaking down over longer periods of time at lower temperatures under 160 degrees.

I do know with traditional cooking methods that connective tissue break down during the stall, between 160-170 degrees internal temperature. I do not know if that connective tissue begins breaking down at 140 degrees but just needs a much longer time to completely break down.

Could the lady's oven be higher than 140 degrees inside. Absolutely, especially if it is an electric oven. Set it at 140 degrees on the knob and it can run anywhere between 120-180 degrees, only a probe thermometer can tell us the truth on that.

As for being dry, as bludawg said. If she wraps that pan up tightly with plastic wrap or foil, it will capture any drippings and still be a nice moist cooking environment that will end up with drippings in the pan, as there is no where for the moisture to evaporate to.

Do I know 100% sure that it is possible. Nope. But I wouldn't say it isn't possible since soude vide cooking has been a game changer technique in the culinary world.
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Old 06-19-2014, 02:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aawa View Post
This right here is the truth. Soude Vide cooking is much different than regular cooking. The food safe temperatures also adjust with the length of time being held at a lower temperature. I can't say for sure if that is what she is doing or if it is safe. However you can cook pork at 140 degrees safely and where it is not completely dried out.

Yep yep. What is often over looked is that we are dealing with temps over time. Collagen will start breaking down at 130ish, but it takes quite a bit of time at that temp for the effects to be noticeable.
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Old 06-19-2014, 11:08 PM   #24
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What a great discussion!

She cooked the pork in a hotel pan , covered in foil. She used a liberal amount of white vinegar, in lieu of the sour orange juice most recipes use. She said she cooks it "really low, like 140" My first thought after seeing the roast, was that temp was much higher. The meat had browned. It alos pulled, as she pulled a big hunk off and ate it right in front of me.

Thank you for the links, and offering your expertise. Disregarding all else, I just wanted to know, if, some how, some way, she could of cooked it exactly as she said, and have that pork pull like it did.

I don't think so, That pork was tender and delicious, and I did not die from eating it, LOL.
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Old 06-19-2014, 11:11 PM   #25
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nope, not a chance. bet it's Celsius.
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Old 06-19-2014, 11:41 PM   #26
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I think she pulled your leg.
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Old 06-20-2014, 01:18 AM   #27
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No. I don't think she tried to mislead me. Like I said, her oven runs hotter then she thinks. As stated, I saw the roast, it sure as heck wasn't cooked at 140.

Not Celsius.

I gain NOTHING arguing with her, so I won't try. Bottom line, I am anxious to try her seasonings on my next pork butt, and make me some Cubanos.
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Old 06-20-2014, 07:24 AM   #28
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I think you should lend her a good oven thermometer to check her temps for real....
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Old 06-20-2014, 07:42 AM   #29
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Sous Vide, medium Boston Butt, 140 for 24-48 hours

I have not done a Boston Butt. I do those on my WSM.

I have done a chuck steak at 140 for 27 hours, it was pink inside, and tender.
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Old 06-20-2014, 08:31 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy_Shuford View Post
Sous Vide, medium Boston Butt, 140 for 24-48 hours

I have not done a Boston Butt. I do those on my WSM.

I have done a chuck steak at 140 for 27 hours, it was pink inside, and tender.
Great picture find. That shows it can probably be done safely with her method.

Would I take 24 hours to cook pork so I could pull it, nope. But there are people that do, and more power to them.
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