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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 09-24-2013, 03:19 AM   #1
Atlasman
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Default Judge accountability

Is there such a thing???.......or are they just let slide because of the excuse for incompetence (low score dismissed)


Example:

Our last chicken scores

988--888--999--999--857--988


I'm sorry but this should require an explanation. Further cause for concern is this judges AVG score he gave out all day for chicken was 27........3-5 points lower than every other judge at his/her table. So this person was at a table that EVERY other judge thought got good chicken all day yet they graded every entry they tasted poorly.

I wonder if these judges even comprehend a little bit what the consequences of their actions can be. To see teams get denied a chance at the Jack and have contests and championships effected by such silliness is a little disheartening when you factor in the amount of hard work, time and money that is invested by cooks and teams trying to have a successful season.
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Unread 09-24-2013, 03:40 AM   #2
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Assuming this was a KCBS contest....

1) Comment cards are currently suspended, so this judge could not provide an explanation to the team. Hopefully his Table Captain asked him for one when he turned in his slip.

2) Disparate scores are most common in chicken, where you are typically cooking separate pieces of meat. It is entirely possible for one thigh of six to deserve significantly lower scores than the other five.

3) Reps work to distribute boxes equally to all tables to minimize the damage of a low-scoring judge or table. This is why statistically a 24 team contest is the most fair, as each team's box should hit each table exactly one time. With more than four tables, luck becomes a big factor for teams that manage to miss the cold table.

If one judge was lowballing for the whole category, we would hope the Table Captain/Rep would have pointed this out and nudged them back to the centerline. I have seen this happen, usually with new judges and they usually take the correction well and are scoring back in range with the rest of the table.
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Unread 09-24-2013, 06:20 AM   #3
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I feel your pain- Ribs in Dover

989 -- 988 -- 856--765--878--989

Please fix the comment cards !!!!
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Unread 09-24-2013, 07:06 AM   #4
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Doesn't KCBS throw out the lowest score?
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Unread 09-24-2013, 07:56 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlasman View Post
Is there such a thing???.......or are they just let slide because of the excuse for incompetence (low score dismissed)


Example:

Our last chicken scores

988--888--999--999--857--988


I'm sorry but this should require an explanation. Further cause for concern is this judges AVG score he gave out all day for chicken was 27........3-5 points lower than every other judge at his/her table. So this person was at a table that EVERY other judge thought got good chicken all day yet they graded every entry they tasted poorly.

I wonder if these judges even comprehend a little bit what the consequences of their actions can be. To see teams get denied a chance at the Jack and have contests and championships effected by such silliness is a little disheartening when you factor in the amount of hard work, time and money that is invested by cooks and teams trying to have a successful season.

lulz...you should have saved this for the silly season.

You got a bad score. It happens...it actually got dropped so it didnt impact your score. You probably didnt walk, but that score wasnt the reason.

Also it is entirely possible that piece of chicken earned that score.
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Unread 09-24-2013, 08:12 AM   #6
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MBN is tracking individual judge scores, and thoroughly reviewing its judges...and then booting or retraining the problem ones. Wish KCBS would jump on the Bandwagon.

And before a Judge flames me, I am a KCBS, MIM, and MBN CBJ. The vast majority of judges are good, just, and fair...but you know as well as I there are odd ducks that score on wacky things like "I dont like muffin pan chicken so I never give it a 9" or "I score down for not have pulled pork in a box" - both statements were made by CBJ's at contests.

When I screw up as a cook, a judge gives me a bad score...when a judge screws up or is a bad judge, he or she ruins a team's chances of winning and costs us cooks a lot of money...HUGE difference

So yeah, judge accountability is an issue.
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Unread 09-24-2013, 08:20 AM   #7
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I see a lot of judges just using the numbers 9-8-7 for every entry they score at KCBS events. I have even heard judges say that they just can't give anything lower than 7 even if it should be 5 (below average). If you have someone trying to use the entire scale using all the numbers from 2 to 9 and other judges at the same table are using only 9-8-7 then the judge trying to score correctly looks like a low scoring judge. There was even an article in the Bullsheet recently about this.
From the article in the September Bullsheet;
Another habit I see in judging is the 7,8,9 judges. The numbers available
to us as judges are 2 thru 9.
Granted 2,3,4 are seldom seen at one of my contests but they do happen
and I for one have no problem writing them on my card. If a sample
is that bad usually I’m not the only one at the table with that score. But I
have also heard a judge say “I never give anything less than a 7 because
I feel bad for the cook”, That’s nice and all but what about the cook? A 7
means above average, are you doing the cook a disservice by telling him
his entry is above average at this contest and the next contest judges give
him a realistic score of 5 and now he is extremely confused? Wouldn’t it
be more fair to truthfully give him the score that really reflects his entry so

that he knows where he stands and can begin the process of improving?
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Unread 09-24-2013, 08:59 AM   #8
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Atlasman and to an extent Rolfe, I think the main points to come away with here have been listed above, being:

> Disparate scores are most common in chicken, where you are typically cooking separate pieces of meat. It is entirely possible for one thigh of six to deserve significantly lower scores than the other five.

Ribs being second most common because of different ends, different racks, etc...


Also, scores varying 2 numbers are normal and to be accepted. Frankly, it's very subjective (other than tenderness). Even then, tenderness does have a tendency to affect taste scores. I think that's what we're seeing on Rolfe's scores above.

The 5's and 6's to the 9's displayed in Rolfe's example is noteworthy IMHO, but also much more easily explained in ribs or chicken. The variance is pretty huge, but I've seen it in my own Q a time or two. One time we put forth ribs from 2 different racks, only to find out that one of the racks (had to be the un-sampled one, didnt it, da**ed laws of nature) was skunky. We were slammed in taste on those 2 ribs; rightfully so...

I'm not saying yours were skunky. However, it appears as though you had 2 or 3 ribs there that probably were tough as nails (if I had to guess).
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Unread 09-24-2013, 09:56 AM   #9
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I can understand differences in taste and tenderness. Especially in ribs and chicken. However, appearance should be pretty consistent. How can someone come up with a 7 when the rest are 9's and 8's?
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Unread 09-24-2013, 10:00 AM   #10
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I actually competed in an event earlier this summer and at the cook's meeting we were told that all judges had erasers and that they could change our scores based on what other entries scored. When asked why they didn't use a set standard for each category instead of comparative judging, which gives us no mark to strive for, they did not offer an answer except to explain it again. Seems to me that any event using comparative scoring hurts its cooks simply because the cooks not longer have an idea of what T T and A should look like. That's like saying if you have more tackles and bigger players than the other team, you should always win the game.
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Unread 09-24-2013, 10:03 AM   #11
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^ Was it Beer, Bourbon, BBQ? That's the way NCBS runs things.
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Unread 09-24-2013, 10:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkay View Post
I actually competed in an event earlier this summer and at the cook's meeting we were told that all judges had erasers and that they could change our scores based on what other entries scored. When asked why they didn't use a set standard for each category instead of comparative judging, which gives us no mark to strive for, they did not offer an answer except to explain it again. Seems to me that any event using comparative scoring hurts its cooks simply because the cooks not longer have an idea of what T T and A should look like. That's like saying if you have more tackles and bigger players than the other team, you should always win the game.
What sanctioning body?

Example...Each box in Blind Judging in KCBS is judged on its own merits. In MBN entries are judged agianst each other...best on table wins.
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Unread 09-24-2013, 10:05 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pole D View Post
I can understand differences in taste and tenderness. Especially in ribs and chicken. However, appearance should be pretty consistent. How can someone come up with a 7 when the rest are 9's and 8's?
As Lakedogs stated above, "scores varying 2 numbers are normal and to be accepted". 7 is defined as above average, so getting a 7 along with 8's and 9's is not inconsistent and the lowest score is dropped.
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Unread 09-24-2013, 10:13 AM   #14
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And that is why I am a KCBS member....
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Unread 09-24-2013, 10:15 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pole D View Post
I can understand differences in taste and tenderness. Especially in ribs and chicken. However, appearance should be pretty consistent. How can someone come up with a 7 when the rest are 9's and 8's?
In general I agree with you, BUT . . . darned if the devil isn't in the actual details...

First, I hear multiple times from many people that appearance score is the most objective (and least subjective) of them. I happen to disagree 100%. Frankly, what really turns your taste buds on (in appearance) may not set my lights afire and visa versa. Also, imagery comes in to it for some, and I'll author a point that if a piece of something comes across your table at a restaurant and it looks completely like a turd, something tells me that you're not thinking: "DAMN, I JUST MUST EAT THAT TURD". As it happens, plenty MM's that aren't displayed well look like turds. Pulled pork can be made to look like cat food if you aren't careful. I've seen chicken that looked like potatoes, and many others that didn't look like food at all. It's tough to say "Damn, I want to eat those taters" when we're trying to judge how appetizing the chicken entry...

So, honestly, I think a 2 point variance (in a KCBS system) is normal. However, 3 or 4 point variance, unless something is very off, should be questioned.
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