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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 07-29-2013, 07:24 PM   #1
Podge
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Default "Luck of the Table"

I actually read the Bullsheet today!.. Seems those new score sheets will be a valuable tool!.. They had mentioned in the article, that it will become verifiable if it is in fact, luck of the table. Since this thing has been out a couple weekends' worth of contests, for those who have gotten the score sheets and reviewed them, what do you think ???
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Unread 07-29-2013, 07:43 PM   #2
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Statistically speaking, yes.

Last edited by Pappy Q; 07-29-2013 at 08:28 PM..
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Unread 07-29-2013, 08:04 PM   #3
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I think there are many years worth of data to suggest that the teams that are really good at cooking competition bbq seem to either not be affected by table luck or have the market cornered on it....neither of which helps me.

"Table luck" is the excuse that is used to try and make sense of contests where you didn't score as well as you thought you should. It's what helps you dust off your britches when you get your posterior waxed.

I can't control which table my box lands on, but I can control the quality of the product that goes in that box. I think I'll just focus on the product and, hopefully, the luck thing will sort itself out.
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Unread 07-29-2013, 08:20 PM   #4
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I think teams that have become consistently successful are no doubt putting out a quality product, and are also able to objectively identify when that product can be improved.

BUT we've all had that day where we know we had a great product and got stomped, or had a product that we know could have been better that was rewarded disproportionately.

The new scoring program pulls aside the curtain on that phenomenon, and shows if your boxes landed on a table that was running hot all day, on one that was scoring in the basement all day, or somewhere in between.

A little bit of math shows whether the "luck of the table" was a significant factor or not at a particular contest.
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Unread 07-29-2013, 10:27 PM   #5
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I agree that in order to be consistently successful a team has to cook quality food, but I also believe that hitting the wrong table can be a problem. As an example, at the competition in Morton, IL this weekend, here is the breakdown of top 10 finishes per table...

Chicken
Table 1 - 0
Table 2 - 1
Table 3 - 2
Table 4 - 1
Table 5 - 1
Table 6 - 5
Table 7 - 0

Ribs
Table 1 - 2
Table 2 - 1
Table 3 - 2
Table 4 - 0
Table 5 - 4
Table 6 - 1
Table 7 - 0

Pork
Table 1 - 1
Table 2 - 2
Table 3 - 2
Table 4 - 1
Table 5 - 3
Table 6 - 1
Table 7 - 0

Brisket
Table 1 - 2
Table 2 - 2
Table 3 - 4
Table 4 - 0
Table 5 - 1
Table 6 - 1
Table 7 - 0

Total Top 10's by Table
Table 1 - 5 (12.5%)
Table 2 - 6 (15%)
Table 3 - 10 (25%)
Table 4 - 2 (5%)
Table 5 - 9 (22.5%)
Table 6 - 8 (20%)
Table 7 - 0 (0%)

Tables 4 and 7 were the lowest scoring tables. At least table 4 put 2 teams in the top 10, but the highest finish that came off of table 7 was 17th.

Also, the GC team was on table 5, one of the higher scoring tables, twice. I thought that was to be avoided? (I am not saying that the GC team didn't deserve the win)

I am also not ruling out the possibility that all 26 entries that hit table 7 (they had 7 entries in two categories) were sub par, but the odds are against that. There was clearly an issue with table 7. I have no idea how to fix that, but the new score sheet made it pretty obvious.
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Unread 07-29-2013, 10:39 PM   #6
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let's cross threads here a bit....would a comment card from table seven hurt or help you, do you think?
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Unread 07-29-2013, 10:44 PM   #7
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I protest Quau winning...
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Unread 07-29-2013, 10:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boogiesnap View Post
let's cross threads here a bit....would a comment card from table seven hurt or help you, do you think?
I'll give the same answer I did in the comment card thread

It depends on what it said. If it was useful comment (positive or negative), then yes, but if it was just a general comment, then no.
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Unread 07-29-2013, 10:58 PM   #9
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i think you'd be doing yourself a disservice by changing anything from a comment card from table seven.

they clearly didn't like any of the samples, and it's unlikely all 36 were bad.

or for that matter thinking you're king off table 3. it's gotta work both ways.

pushing forward, would it be possible to get this exact info printed out at the contest from the reps?
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Unread 07-30-2013, 12:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
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I protest Quau winning...




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Unread 07-30-2013, 02:06 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron_L View Post
Also, the GC team was on table 5, one of the higher scoring tables, twice. I thought that was to be avoided?
There is absolutely no reason that a box should land on the same table twice at a contest with 45 teams and 7 tables (and it could just as easily been 8 tables). I don't know if there were Table Captains at each table or if someone was doing double duty but this is the kind of thing that the new score sheets are going to expose. We're going to see how often this kind of thing happens and we're going to see if it happens repeatedly with the same Reps. There is no excuse for this.

Quote:
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(I am not saying that the GC team didn't deserve the win)
I agree. Anyone who's been paying attention to KCBS competitions for the last decade knows that Mike & Beth of QUAU are among the best teams, if not the best team, in the nation and it would be hard to argue that a 23+ point victory would not have happened had it not been for landing on the same table twice. The margin of victory may have been smaller but I would bet the farm that the end result would still have QUAU on top that day. Had the actual margin of victory been only a few points, then there might be some reason for a little grumbling.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 06:17 AM   #12
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It might show you from contest to contest how the tables played out but overall whats it really going to change?It was a one time deal and the odds are that those exact events are never going to play out again, the exact same food going to those exact same judges, at the exact same table.Change one of those things at the next comp and the results will be totally different.It can show you why you placed where you did on any given day but theres no way to track and no way to pinpoint a problem on something thats different every time its played out.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 06:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince RnQ View Post
I agree. Anyone who's been paying attention to KCBS competitions for the last decade knows that Mike & Beth of QUAU are among the best teams, if not the best team, in the nation and it would be hard to argue that a 23+ point victory would not have happened had it not been for landing on the same table twice. The margin of victory may have been smaller but I would bet the farm that the end result would still have QUAU on top that day. Had the actual margin of victory been only a few points, then there might be some reason for a little grumbling.
I absolutely agree, Vince! The RGC team did hit the dreaded table 7 for one category, and just for fun I looked at what the results had been if they had taken first in that category they still wouldn't have beaten Quau.

I didn't post this analysis out of sour grapes. We did hit table 7 with our pork, and it was scored poorly, and knowing that table 7 scored everything poorly told me that maybe our pork wasn't that bad, but that's it. I posted the analysis because it is a perfect example of how a table or two can effect a competition.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 06:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boogiesnap View Post
i think you'd be doing yourself a disservice by changing anything from a comment card from table seven.
Agreed, but it would have been interesting to see what they were thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogiesnap View Post
pushing forward, would it be possible to get this exact info printed out at the contest from the reps?
You'd have to ask KCBS for that, but It wouldn't be hard to put together. I did it manually in 5 minutes.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 07:00 AM   #15
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i really like the availability of this information. it can really help you understand what happened.

like ronelle said, his pork hit table seven, scored poorly, but everything at that table scored poorly. probably don't tinker your product(). now if it landed on table three and scored poorly, time to tweak probably. very useful for the individual, IMHO.
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