喫煙者
The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS.


Forum Portal Recipes Smoke Signals Magazine Welocme Merchandise Associations Purchase Subscription Brethren Banners
Go Back   The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS. > Discussion Area > Competition BBQ

Notices

Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 07-24-2013, 02:55 AM   #196
82's BBQ
Full Fledged Farker

 
82's BBQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-21-12
Location: Danville, IL
Downloads: 2
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoKanMeathead View Post
We had our fist experience with the new score sheets this past weekend. I do like the additional information - HOWEVER - our scores were wrong and the score of at least one other team was wrong.

Here were the issues with our scores:
1. If you add up the 5 highest individual judges scores for pork the total is 162.24. When you look at the Pork scoring sheet the total shows 163.9544. The score for Judge 2 is wrong.
2. When you look at the pork score on the overall sheet it says 162.8000 – No idea where that came from.
3. The Team Detail Report shows we were on table 4 for pork – the pork score sheet shows we were on table 7.

There was another team that won Ribs with a 178.8572 but they actually should have had a 180!! 5 Judges gave them 999.

Bottom Line - Check your new score sheets CAREFULLY!
I noticed an error (.oo56) in scoring also in one of my categories. New Palestine, IN
__________________
Did you compete this weekend? Take a second to fill out a survey about the event.
82's BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-24-2013, 06:11 AM   #197
rolfejr
Full Fledged Farker

 
rolfejr's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-09-10
Location: Forest Hill, MD
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro View Post
There is no value because (1) you don't know the circumstances of those tables and (2) you'll most likely never encounter that set of variables (judges at that table, other entries at that table) again. Back to the roulette example. The odds of any one number coming up are 37-1; if 18 comes up 6 times in a row what are the odds it will come up 18 the next spin? 37-1. The odds always remain the same because they reset every spin. Your contest history within the aspect of judges and tables and all variables (N) is always N=1. It resets every event.
Well said!
The only constant is you, the odds of seeing the same set of judges under the same circumstances is off the charts. If you adjust your style against one or two contest results you will always be chasing your tail.

We are still fairly new to this, 7 comps, and my thinking is that it will take about 10 - 12 to gather up enough data to start tweaking with confidence.

If you change every time you get a bad score, you will have random products with random success.
The best teams cook the same EVERY TIME until they find a consistent flaw in their process. They fix it and they improve.
That is the key to success, not chasing hot tables.
__________________
Rolfe Garrett
Certified BBQ Judge
Certified Table Captain

Rockin' Robyn's BBQ
rolfejr is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-24-2013, 06:54 AM   #198
DawgPhan
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Join Date: 08-09-07
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

So wait....this new scoring program is not calculating scores properly? Is that right?
DawgPhan is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-24-2013, 08:41 AM   #199
musicmanryann
is One Chatty Farker

 
musicmanryann's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-11-08
Location: Ames, Iowa
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

This is complete hearsay, and what likely amounts to normal hobnobbing between judges across the tables to pass the time between categories, but it was told to me this past weekend that all the judges were talking about the new system during the contest. That KCBS is tracking their scores across contests. Some judges have already received letters because their judging is way off from the norm and some have been banned. It stuck me as odd and inaccurate, but was curious if anyone could confirm or deny that this was the case?
__________________
Big T'z Q Cru Championship BBQ Team
CBJ #50801
6 WSM's
2 Weber Kettles
FEC100
2 Backwoods Fatboy
2 Not-so-Ugly Drum Smokers from Gateway BBQ Store
Jambo -- The Orange Monster
www.bigtzbbq.com
Join our facebook group
musicmanryann is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-24-2013, 08:45 AM   #200
MikeJ65
Full Fledged Farker
 
Join Date: 09-03-12
Location: GRETNA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls Casten View Post
Your rib average for the year is 163 (four contests from scoreCard) and you scored a 161.68 in that contest. Your highest score for ribs all year is a 165 ... I would work on ribs too.
Not trying to be hard on you just pointing out the misconception of the "table from hell".
Well, this was my 5th ever comp and I've certainly not perfected ribs (or any other category). I changed my rib cook after Kearney and have gone 11/32, 7/34, and 16/32 with a table win since then. I'm just more concerned with the categories that have been inconsistent and ranking 4th or 5th at the table.
__________________
Mike Chief Cook - When Pigs Die CBJ - KCBS
MikeJ65 is online now   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-24-2013, 09:10 AM   #201
Balls Casten
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Join Date: 01-04-09
Location: Johnston, Ia
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJ65 View Post
Well, this was my 5th ever comp and I've certainly not perfected ribs (or any other category). I changed my rib cook after Kearney and have gone 11/32, 7/34, and 16/32 with a table win since then. I'm just more concerned with the categories that have been inconsistent and ranking 4th or 5th at the table.
Mike dont get me wrong, you are doing great! I just ment that although the table stats pointed towards it being a bad table. Other stats said you were judged fairly or at least consistant with your other cooks.

Also did you check your judge 6 scores in ribs? Although it was the score that was thrown out I dont know what scores add up to a 29.1544
__________________
Memory impairment ... The free prize at the bottom of every whiskey bottle.
Balls Casten is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-24-2013, 09:55 AM   #202
Alexa RnQ
is One Chatty Farker

 
Alexa RnQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-12-07
Location: the Ninth Ring of Hell, cleverly disguised as Phoenix
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicmanryann View Post
This is complete hearsay, and what likely amounts to normal hobnobbing between judges across the tables to pass the time between categories, but it was told to me this past weekend that all the judges were talking about the new system during the contest. That KCBS is tracking their scores across contests. Some judges have already received letters because their judging is way off from the norm and some have been banned. It stuck me as odd and inaccurate, but was curious if anyone could confirm or deny that this was the case?
My cynical side says:
But if the judges' rumor mill is spinning in that direction, well and good. Just giving thought that it *might* happen might give some judges pause. And for the majority that are handing down thoughtful, well-considered scores, well, what would they have to worry about?
__________________
.
Special Snowflake
Don't practice until you get it right; practice until you can't get it wrong.
Don't overthink or undercook.

180 Brisket -- Sam's Club, Salt Lake City, UT 2014
180 Chicken -- The Great Vegas Gridiron Grill-Off, Las Vegas, NV 2014
180 Chicken -- Sam's Club National, Bentonville, AR 2013


Rhythm 'n QUE
Alexa RnQ is online now   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Unread 07-24-2013, 10:34 AM   #203
Slamdunkpro
Babbling Farker

 
Slamdunkpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-27-07
Location: Northern VA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicmanryann View Post
This is complete hearsay, and what likely amounts to normal hobnobbing between judges across the tables to pass the time between categories, but it was told to me this past weekend that all the judges were talking about the new system during the contest. That KCBS is tracking their scores across contests. Some judges have already received letters because their judging is way off from the norm and some have been banned. It stuck me as odd and inaccurate, but was curious if anyone could confirm or deny that this was the case?
I can't imaging KCBS moving that fast on anything (except maybe a penis apron)
__________________
Aporkalypse Now Competition BBQ team
Thanks to our sponsors: Wusthof Trident USA & Creekstone Farms
Spicewine Tandem - "The Beast"

Brinkman modified upright, Weber Kettle(s); Meadow Creek Pr-24, Super Stealth Mode black & Night Vision Red Thermopens
-----------------
MABA - (Mid Atlantic BBQ Association) President
KCBS Certified Judge - #23289
Slamdunkpro is online now   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Unread 07-24-2013, 11:08 AM   #204
billygbob
On the road to being a farker
 
billygbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-06-08
Location: T'ville, KY
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa RnQ View Post
My cynical side says:
But if the judges' rumor mill is spinning in that direction, well and good. Just giving thought that it *might* happen might give some judges pause. And for the majority that are handing down thoughtful, well-considered scores, well, what would they have to worry about?
Not every bite in a box is the same. What qualifies an individual to get dinged? What about the judge that gets the one piece of pork 'bark' that is just burnt fat or the one "burnt end" that is not rendered. Scoring them according to their actual taste and tenderness makes them an outlier at that table so they get "written up".
billygbob is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Unread 07-24-2013, 11:39 AM   #205
Slamdunkpro
Babbling Farker

 
Slamdunkpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-27-07
Location: Northern VA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billygbob View Post
Not every bite in a box is the same. What qualifies an individual to get dinged? What about the judge that gets the one piece of pork 'bark' that is just burnt fat or the one "burnt end" that is not rendered. Scoring them according to their actual taste and tenderness makes them an outlier at that table so they get "written up".
If they actually do this here's your future:

888 888 888 888 888 888
__________________
Aporkalypse Now Competition BBQ team
Thanks to our sponsors: Wusthof Trident USA & Creekstone Farms
Spicewine Tandem - "The Beast"

Brinkman modified upright, Weber Kettle(s); Meadow Creek Pr-24, Super Stealth Mode black & Night Vision Red Thermopens
-----------------
MABA - (Mid Atlantic BBQ Association) President
KCBS Certified Judge - #23289
Slamdunkpro is online now   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-24-2013, 12:05 PM   #206
Smitty250
Full Fledged Farker
 
Smitty250's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-18-10
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa RnQ View Post
My cynical side says:
But if the judges' rumor mill is spinning in that direction, well and good. Just giving thought that it *might* happen might give some judges pause. And for the majority that are handing down thoughtful, well-considered scores, well, what would they have to worry about?
I have to disagree with this - When / If KCBS starts sending letters out and banning judges for "not in line" judging then the whole process is useless! Our Q will not be judged fairly by the judges out of fear that they will be written up or banned from judging. What happens when that judge that is handing down thoughtful, well-considered scores gets a sub-par entry? Does he/she not give it a rightful score for fear that thier "average" will go down? Or that judge on infamous Table 5 who thinks that what they cook in their back yard is better than everything there - you know the guy/gal who doesn't give anything higher than a 7. Does he/she start dishing out 8's and 9's for fear of banishment?

Now I am a competitor (never judged) so I have had many moments where I said 'What the hell are those judges thinking? That was the best chicken/ribs/pork/brisket I ever cooked" and ended up middle of the pack or worse. Or even take a 1st in a category one week and the next week not walk doing the same exact thing! So I know and understand the frustrations and confusions when it comes to judging. I think we all need to take a moment and realize that every competition is different - different meat (not the same exact cow, pig, chicken), different tables, different judges, different altitude/humidity/temperature, different teams, etc...But the underlying constant we see is that the "Top" teams continue to win! Not only winning on thier home filed but winning when they travel to other states as well. They are winning where the "difference" is multiplied many times.

I can only see that if KCBS starts "judging the judges" and pushes them to the "norm" then we as competitiors will still not be happy with the outcome! If this happens remember this post at the next comp you go to and there is a 5 way tie for 1st in chicken!
__________________
Loot N' Booty BBQ - Lang 60 Deluxe, 22.5 WSM, 18.5 WSM
Smitty250 is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-24-2013, 12:05 PM   #207
Vince RnQ
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Vince RnQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-09-07
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billygbob View Post
Not every bite in a box is the same. What qualifies an individual to get dinged? What about the judge that gets the one piece of pork 'bark' that is just burnt fat or the one "burnt end" that is not rendered. Scoring them according to their actual taste and tenderness makes them an outlier at that table so they get "written up".
We're not talking about a single score in a single category at a single event. The judge's scoring data is useful because it is going to identify those who are outside of the norm on both the high and low sides over a number of categories at a number of contests.

Individual scores are not necessecarily indicative of anyone's average and I certainly wouldn't want to see a judge be confronted for giving an honest score to a single entry.

The real elephant in the room is that for the first time, teams are going to see just how good or how bad the KCBS judging system really is. I have always believed that if a judge cannot articulate their reasoning behind the score he/she gave to an entry they have no business judging in the first place. That's why I have always been a proponent of mandatory comment cards for any score of 5 or lower. Of course, the comment card system is temporarily, (most likely permanently), on hiatus so that really doesn't much matter.
Vince RnQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Unread 07-24-2013, 12:26 PM   #208
Candy Sue
is one Smokin' Farker


 
Join Date: 09-03-09
Location: Pine Bluff, AR
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicmanryann View Post
This is complete hearsay, and what likely amounts to normal hobnobbing between judges across the tables to pass the time between categories, but it was told to me this past weekend that all the judges were talking about the new system during the contest. That KCBS is tracking their scores across contests. Some judges have already received letters because their judging is way off from the norm and some have been banned. It stuck me as odd and inaccurate, but was curious if anyone could confirm or deny that this was the case?
I don't know about any of this! I doubt any other board member does either. So I'd call bs on this one, until a judge showed a bona fide letter.
Candy Sue is online now   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-24-2013, 12:38 PM   #209
musicmanryann
is One Chatty Farker

 
musicmanryann's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-11-08
Location: Ames, Iowa
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy Sue View Post
I don't know about any of this! I doubt any other board member does either. So I'd call bs on this one, until a judge showed a bona fide letter.
Thanks for the reply Candy! I figured as much, but thought it was interesting it was already being discussed around the tables.
__________________
Big T'z Q Cru Championship BBQ Team
CBJ #50801
6 WSM's
2 Weber Kettles
FEC100
2 Backwoods Fatboy
2 Not-so-Ugly Drum Smokers from Gateway BBQ Store
Jambo -- The Orange Monster
www.bigtzbbq.com
Join our facebook group
musicmanryann is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 07-24-2013, 12:43 PM   #210
Candy Sue
is one Smokin' Farker


 
Join Date: 09-03-09
Location: Pine Bluff, AR
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Big concern is the bunching of the same teams' entries to different tables. Table captains make sure they haven't seen an entry before, but right now, there's no way to keep the same team entries from hitting the same tray going to a different table. Larger the contest, the less it's likely for this to happen. It is worrisome at smaller events though.
Candy Sue is online now   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Loading



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.6.0 Beta 4 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2003 -2012 © BBQ-Brethren Inc. All rights reserved. All Content and Flaming Pig Logo are registered and protected under U.S and International Copyright and Trademarks. Content Within this Website Is Property of BBQ Brethren Inc. Reproduction or alteration is strictly prohibited.