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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 07-11-2013, 06:34 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roksmith View Post
Balanced and bland are not even in the same ballpark.
Bland is the lack of flavor. Balanced is correctly proportioned flavor.
Has nothing to do with how much flavor.
Bland = Boring for me so maybe that's the word that I should have used. Bottom line is there are plenty of foods that people love that aren't the least bit balanced.
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Unread 07-11-2013, 09:41 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Q-Dat View Post
I'm glad to know that its not a CBJ class.

But I do wonder how prevalent this notion is of balanced being better just because its balanced.

One person's balanced is another person's bland.

Q-Dat, I've been to many different sanctioning bodies training sessions, many times. Each stress different points for certain, but I'd never seen any talk about flavor much at all (including "balance"), other than it's your preference and is the most subjective.

I think it is. What's happening is KCBS is growing leaps and bounds. Doing this they have to bring on new judges fairly quickly to fill the need. The more people that are brought in, frankly, a larger sampling of the general populous is represented. While they're instructed on tenderness requirements (regardless of their personal preferences), their tendency to think (and/or want) sweet sauce has influenced what competitors submit, because nobody wants to complete and get trounced. KCBS, being the largest now by a fairly big margin, certainly has it's influence on other sanctioning bodies, as many competitors compete in multiple sanctioning bodies' events... What I'm trying to say is that I think the change and the influence is a natural part of the growth.

I do think that some of this change is really a shame, because the very best ribs I've EVER had in my lifetime probably would not be cooked or submitted any longer. In 2005 I had the pleasure to judge MiM winner Gwatney National BBQ team's ribs, which were presented without any sauce, and while I've made plenty of GC'ing ribs, and judged plenty of GC'ing ribs, to day that one rib was still the all time best. I dont think anyone would submit a true Memphis rib any longer. I imagine every once in a while, in MBN, they'll get some, but it's rare, when in 2004, 2005,... it was the norm.

Perhaps that's what the interviewees were trying to say... I dont know.


For what it's worth, in the few KCBS competitions that I competed in, I didnt see what the one guy was saying... Mind you, I'm one to try to "play by the rules", and if the rules say "quiet time", I abide by them. For that reason, personally, there are competitions fairly local that do not allow alcohol (not even beer in a red solo cup), and I've politely passed when asked if we'd participate.
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Unread 07-11-2013, 09:45 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Lake Dogs View Post
And yes, hopefully everyone knows I was joking, and what DivaQ wrote probably did say it all. It's all BBQ, one way or another. What I like/prefer may not be what you like/prefer, but it's still BBQ.

I do think it's a shame at what Q-Dat showed. No one should be instructed as to what it should, or shouldn't for that matter, taste like. They should be instructed that it's not a sauce contest, and that they should be judging the taste of the meat, and how the seasonings/spices/sauces used enhance and compliment the meat flavor, not mask it.
I do not agree with this either, to you that is your feeling, to me bbq has sauce, its up to the individual if its too heavy or overpowering. you are trying to direct peoples taste scores with that statement. Judge the entry, as a whole, if you like it score it that way, if you dont score it that way.

everyone has a choice to either compete or not, if you compete its up to you how you prepare your entries, flavors etc. If your not winning, then change or dont, but you cant complain about the judges for liking what they like. If people do it for fun and are not worried about the results, great, but we cant afford that, i can cook for several hundred people for the cost of a comp, so for me I want to have as much fun as possible and still do my best. that way if we dont walk, i still had a great time with friends and teams we like to hang with.
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Unread 07-11-2013, 11:27 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake Dogs View Post
Q-Dat, I've been to many different sanctioning bodies training sessions, many times. Each stress different points for certain, but I'd never seen any talk about flavor much at all (including "balance"), other than it's your preference and is the most subjective.

I think it is. What's happening is KCBS is growing leaps and bounds. Doing this they have to bring on new judges fairly quickly to fill the need. The more people that are brought in, frankly, a larger sampling of the general populous is represented. While they're instructed on tenderness requirements (regardless of their personal preferences), their tendency to think (and/or want) sweet sauce has influenced what competitors submit, because nobody wants to complete and get trounced. KCBS, being the largest now by a fairly big margin, certainly has it's influence on other sanctioning bodies, as many competitors compete in multiple sanctioning bodies' events... What I'm trying to say is that I think the change and the influence is a natural part of the growth.

I do think that some of this change is really a shame, because the very best ribs I've EVER had in my lifetime probably would not be cooked or submitted any longer. In 2005 I had the pleasure to judge MiM winner Gwatney National BBQ team's ribs, which were presented without any sauce, and while I've made plenty of GC'ing ribs, and judged plenty of GC'ing ribs, to day that one rib was still the all time best. I dont think anyone would submit a true Memphis rib any longer. I imagine every once in a while, in MBN, they'll get some, but it's rare, when in 2004, 2005,... it was the norm.

Perhaps that's what the interviewees were trying to say... I dont know.


For what it's worth, in the few KCBS competitions that I competed in, I didnt see what the one guy was saying... Mind you, I'm one to try to "play by the rules", and if the rules say "quiet time", I abide by them. For that reason, personally, there are competitions fairly local that do not allow alcohol (not even beer in a red solo cup), and I've politely passed when asked if we'd participate.
Great observations.

Us competition cooks have a herd mentality. We copy what wins. My feeling is that these things run in a cycle and we are already seeing a little pushback from over sweet sauces.

Someone will win something big with a dry rib, teach a class, and dry ribs will be everywhere.
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Unread 07-11-2013, 11:56 AM   #110
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I don't see it as herd mentality. I see it as evolution. Adapt or fail.
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Unread 07-11-2013, 09:05 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Podge View Post
This was an interesting article. I will have to add, that us competitors are not bastardizing BBQ. We do what it takes to win within the rules. If the judges like bastardized bbq samples, then it is them who is the cause of what we do. Take this article for instance, if that guy didn't have any success in injecting his brisket with god-knows-what, he wouldn't do it anymore. If he always had the same success with just getting a brisket and putting salt and pepper on it, he'd still turn that in.

I guess i'm trying to say, most all of us cook for the judges, and most of us would rather cook with a different flavor profile, etc. for our own tastes, which would surprisingly probably be more suited to the people who at first criticize us for Bastardizing. So, who is really ruining BBQ?

I say no one. We either cook a product we like, or we cook a product that wins, because the judges like and expect something specific.
Hey Podge. I think your last couple of statements is pretty much what the article was talking about. In a competition, we cook for the judges who expect things a certain way. However, most of us as cooks would not cook that way for ourselves because we don't necessarily consider it to be good bbq. We consider it to be overly sweet and overly seasoned.

IMHO some of what is being done to present a winning turn in to the judges is not really bbq. For example, braising chicken in a pan of butter is not bbq as far as I am concerned, it is braising. I am not against injecting, I don't do it at home, but I will inject pork for a comp. That being said, when I do inject, I use something like apple juice and spices. When you start injecting with phosphates, etc I think you get away from bbq.
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Unread 07-11-2013, 09:08 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gettinbasted View Post
Great observations.

Us competition cooks have a herd mentality. We copy what wins. My feeling is that these things run in a cycle and we are already seeing a little pushback from over sweet sauces.

Someone will win something big with a dry rib, teach a class, and dry ribs will be everywhere.
Exactly. There doesn't seem to be much originality out there. I'm not saying there isn't any; there are some out there that are winning doing there own thing.
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Unread 07-12-2013, 06:37 AM   #113
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Wait a minute - you can inject beef bouillon into brisket & win
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Unread 07-12-2013, 07:58 AM   #114
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I thought it was a great article of 3 guys opinions. I agree with most of what they said. I do wish you could turn in something different and get judged fairly on it which I don't think you can, I think you get judged as an outcast. My opinion.
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Unread 07-12-2013, 09:11 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddahavit View Post
I do not agree with this either, to you that is your feeling, to me bbq has sauce, its up to the individual if its too heavy or overpowering. you are trying to direct peoples taste scores with that statement. Judge the entry, as a whole, if you like it score it that way, if you dont score it that way.

everyone has a choice to either compete or not, if you compete its up to you how you prepare your entries, flavors etc. If your not winning, then change or dont, but you cant complain about the judges for liking what they like. If people do it for fun and are not worried about the results, great, but we cant afford that, i can cook for several hundred people for the cost of a comp, so for me I want to have as much fun as possible and still do my best. that way if we dont walk, i still had a great time with friends and teams we like to hang with.
For what it's worth, that section (in red above) is almost verbatim from MIM, MBN, and GBA CBJ class....
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