The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS.  


Our Homepage Donation to Forum Overhead Recipes Smoke Signals Magazine Welocme Merchandise Associations Purchase Subscription Amazon Affiliate
Go Back   The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS. > Discussion Area > Competition BBQ

Notices

Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-10-2013, 09:21 AM   #1
Big Poppa
is One Chatty Farker

 
Join Date: 04-11-09
Location: La Quinta, Ca
Default an Idea for Continuing Education for Judges

First off I know that this is going to go bad but am posting it in the hopes that it can be constructive. Also this is not judge bashing....

Cooks at the end of the season sit back and think about what went right and what went wrong with their season. The first rule is that the cook is never wrong...his or her food is always a 180... They never cooked or baxed wrong its always a bad table.he heh ehehe

I put on the Trigg Class last weekend and there were four judges. The first topic that came up was fat on the bottom of the brisket slices....2 judges said they score down if there is fat....two said they score down if there isnt fat.....two said they dock brisket boxes if they dont have burnt ends...

There were several other instances of wildly different ideas of what is correct that it depressed me and then I thought really that after you take the judging class you are on your own.

What do you guys and gals think of coming up with the top thirty oddities/questions and break them down to 6 five question tests. After the reps talk prior to judging judges are given the test sheets and they are quickly graded and the person that needs clarification gets it from the rep. If some one did 5-6 contests you would know how they scored and slowly and surely clear up some of the variances in judging.
Big Poppa is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Old 02-10-2013, 09:48 AM   #2
Bbq Bubba
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
Bbq Bubba's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-03-07
Location: New Baltimore, Mi.
Default

First thing i'd do is remove those 4 judges.
I wonder if the teaching is the same across the country?
Mike and Theresa Lake have taught most of the judges in this area and that would never fly.
__________________
Pitboss @ Woodpile BBQ Shack
Beer Snob
I cook the best brisket north of Dallas. Get over it.
Michigan State Lead-Operation BBQ Relief
www.operationbbqrelief.com
#detroitporkmafia
BBQ Person of the Year 2013
Bbq Bubba is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Old 02-10-2013, 10:05 AM   #3
Muzzlebrake
Babbling Farker
 
Muzzlebrake's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-06
Location: Pleasant Valley NY
Default

I really hope this doesn't turn into just another judge bashing thread and we can actually open a civil dialogue about improving the process. So much of what judges do is subjective and therefore is going to be very hard to legislate. However we need a system of checks and balances to ensure that judges are adhering to the objective aspects of their tasks.

I think the thing I find most aggravating is there doesn't seem to be (at least to me) a system of correcting, admonishing or penalizing a judge when they are not using the required judging criteria. Like you said you had 2 judges that will score down an entry on something that is not in the box, clearly in violation of KCBS judging criteria. Or how about the judge that marks you down because of a lack of smoke ring, something the judging instructions clearly say not to do?

I have had discussions with more than one judge who are very happy to admit they use additional criteria above and beyond the standard judging. One judge last year got very indignant with me when I questioned him after he made the statement he judges down if there are only 6 pieces in the box or if he gets the last piece. In my experience this behavior is both widespread and accepted.

If a team violates a rule they are DQ'd, what happens to the judge that judges using something other than the standard criteria? As far as I know nothing happens, partly because it is very hard to know a judge doing this unless they they self identify.

I think the TC's and Reps should be more heavily involved in the process. Last year I actually received a comment card about not having enough smoke ring. My question is how did that comment card make it all the way back to me without that judge being corrected by anyone? If I had violated a rule and say left a tiny piece of foil in that box you better believe the TC and Reps would be heavily involved. They, along with judges are ensuring that cooks are abiding by the rules set before them, why isn't the same true for judging?
__________________
Sean Keever

"What sort of people are these charcoal masters? They behaved badly and were unconcerned with appearances. Their hair was long and unkempt and their clothes were wrinkled and old. They drank beer to and from the crab house and they made rude noises while we cooked." Tao of Charcoal
Muzzlebrake is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 02-10-2013, 10:55 AM   #4
Smoke'n Ice
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Join Date: 05-08-09
Location: Plano, TX
Default

It might be as simple as having KCBS form a committee of judges, reps, cooks, organizers and have them look at the variances and try to come up with a solution.

1. Some of the ideas that I have would be to create a sub-web page for people to post on anonymously with sub-topic areas about cooking and judging problems
2. Committee would cull them and come to a consensus on maybe six misconceptions about the cooking and judging criteria on each of the major meats
3. Place these on index cards and have the TC at each contest read them before judging each category to his six charges or have them read them themselves. Just make sure it happens
4. Each cook team would also be supplied with the same information at the cooks meeting
5. Solicit feedback AFTER the category is judged and have the TC write on his index card comments; ie. new suggestions for inclusion. Something must be written, even no comment.
6. Solicit feedback from each cook team as well

This would then become a form of Kaizen, continuous quality improvement, that could be visited weekly by the committee and it could lead to changes and improvements in cbj and rep training and, gasp, rules.

Some may complain that it would be labor intensive and would cost money. This could be overcome by simply charging an extra dollar from each team at each contest to defray this cost and hire a part time person at the KCBS office to do the computer entry and organizing. I personally would be more than willing to pay this tax to get a more consistent judging crew.

Just an idea to get some form of judging criteria consistency.

Flame on
Smoke'n Ice is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Old 02-10-2013, 11:39 AM   #5
carlyle
is one Smokin' Farker

 
carlyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-06-10
Location: Owatonna, MN
Default

Continuing education- re education of judges is surly necessary and overdo.

Doing a test in the judging building/ tent right before turn ins is not the time to do it.

There is too much going on for the Reps and the organizers right then to add that to the mix. And you do not want an upset or confused judge to get your chicken box right after they did not do well on that test - do you?

I like your idea for some testing , just do it a different time.

Like annual testing before renewing your KCBS membership card. Need a completed testing, that is used as a teaching tool, in order to get your card.

If not testing - then need a completed continuing education course - online?- before
you get your annual renewal.

That is more organized and better for the judge, Rep and organizer.
__________________
Carlyle, KCBS, CBJ, Organizer ( Judge Chair)
carlyle is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Old 02-10-2013, 11:51 AM   #6
Ford
is Blowin Smoke!
 
Ford's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-14-07
Location: Lakeland Florida
Default

Judges are people. Judging is subjective. People see, hear, taste, smell and feel differently. They have different opinions of what looks good and tastes good. Non BBQ example I love very rare steak but a friend wants it well done. We're both right but would score very differently.

If a judge scores down on appearance because of lack of burnt ends, they are saying the box looks ok but would be better with burnt ends. It's their opinion. Same for filling the box, anybody who cooks FBA knows what that means.

What I've read lately on judging posts is not really educating judges but trying to get everybody on the same page. Not going to happen and not good for BBQ.
__________________
Ford
Retired competition cook. BBQ mentor.
Ford is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Old 02-10-2013, 11:58 AM   #7
drbbq
is One Chatty Farker
 
drbbq's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-26-04
Location: Saint Petersburg, Florida
Default

Nobody seems to want to address the fact that there are no standards for the turn-ins. Should the slice of brisket have fat on it or not? I've been cooking KCBS for 22 years and I'm not really sure. How can the judge know which is right per KCBS? If we're not willing to set a standard then I believe all four judges have a right to like or dislike the fat.

I believe the whole system needs to be overhauled and perfect BBQ defined in each category. Perfect at least according to the KCBS standard. Now it's gonna be a nightmare to come to an agreement as to what that is, but it needs to be done or IMO the judge is allowed to have an opinion and not be chastised for it.
__________________
Ray Lampe
Dr. BBQ
The Honey Badger of BBQ. I just don't give a sh!t.
drbbq is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 02-10-2013, 12:14 PM   #8
SuperQue
Full Fledged Farker
 
Join Date: 02-14-10
Location: Brookfield
Default

I think i'm a fair judge. I judge a box and the meat as its presented. Doesn't matter to me if there is fat on brisket AS LONG AS IT LOOKS GOOD. If there's too much fat then yea, it won't look as appetizing therefore the score should reflect that. If no burnt ends, no problem and i'm not scoring on that fact. The bottom line is that it is all subjective when there are people involved. I judge about 10 contests a year and generally see the same judges throughout the year and by far and away they are very fair in judging. We talk about what we liked and generally agree which entries we liked and why we liked them. And why do the same teams win year over year when they are subjected to the same judges as everyone else? Good bbq wins, plain and simple.
__________________
aka 312BBQ
SuperQue is online now   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Old 02-10-2013, 12:24 PM   #9
dmprantz
is One Chatty Farker
 
Join Date: 01-11-08
Location: Nashville
Default

I think that KCBS doing anything to "certify" judges beyond accepting their money would be a good thing. I've toyed with the idea of tests, and I also like the idea of sending in trojan horse entries to validate that rules are being followed: Send through some entries without garnish, some without burnt ends, etc, all at the same table as entries with those things.

The problem I see is when you get to the line between subjective judging and flat out breaking the rules. i.e. Garnish is optional, and you shouldn't score down for it, but is it reasonable to say that you think something looks better with garnish?

dmp
dmprantz is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Old 02-10-2013, 02:34 PM   #10
Big Poppa
is One Chatty Farker

 
Join Date: 04-11-09
Location: La Quinta, Ca
Default

Once again this isnt bashing judges....It is floating the idea of continuing education.

Ford I understand what you are saying but if there is wild swings in what is judged then I have to believe that there could be room for help.Ray Im with you too....Now getting everyone to agree...I think Ill go back to solvingt my rubik cube blindfolded.
Big Poppa is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Old 02-10-2013, 03:10 PM   #11
ThomEmery
Babbling Farker
 
ThomEmery's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-20-05
Location: Indio Ca.
Default

A online continuing education where CBJs could earn distinctive stars or
stripes or what have you could be helpful to organizers

CBJs could then be seated who have gone the extra mile to be their best
__________________
Catering, Contests, and Community Service

Team What Wood Jesus Que?

Www.bbqthom.com
ThomEmery is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Old 02-10-2013, 03:40 PM   #12
Rich Parker
Babbling Farker
 
Join Date: 06-20-09
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbbq View Post
Nobody seems to want to address the fact that there are no standards for the turn-ins. Should the slice of brisket have fat on it or not? I've been cooking KCBS for 22 years and I'm not really sure. How can the judge know which is right per KCBS? If we're not willing to set a standard then I believe all four judges have a right to like or dislike the fat.

I believe the whole system needs to be overhauled and perfect BBQ defined in each category. Perfect at least according to the KCBS standard. Now it's gonna be a nightmare to come to an agreement as to what that is, but it needs to be done or IMO the judge is allowed to have an opinion and not be chastised for it.
Why do we need a definition of if fat should be allowed on the bottom of the brisket slice? Rules like this would make the entries even more homogeneous than they are now. Taste and appearance are always going to be subjectivity which is a good thing in my opinion.
__________________
WSM, UDS, Deep South Medium, and Victory Smoker - TheBBQSuperstore.com
Rich Parker is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Old 02-10-2013, 03:44 PM   #13
The_Kapn
Moderator Emeritus

 
The_Kapn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-08-04
Location: Marianna, FL
Default

I doubt I can articulate this properly, but will give it a shot.

I am a part time KCBS and FBA Judge, retired from cooking.
I hear and see "interesting" things all the time from a very small (but costly) percentage of the Judges.

There is a disconnect with reality/objectively on both the "low side" and the "high side" of scoring.

I did a KCBS event last fall. Table Captain was also Judging.
His stated position was--"I give 9's on appearance and never less than 8 for taste and tenderness". "The teams spend so much money and time to be here, they earn that".
In talking to this guy after, he freely admitted that a lot of the food "sucked"!
We had about 3/4th of the teams that were either brand new, or only had a few comps on their resume at that time.
I talked to the REP and he just shrugged it off.

I did an FBA contest a couple of years ago when a "Master Judge" said he did not like Baby Backs and admitted to "kill them with a score so they will cook real ribs". If I want Pork Chops, I will buy them."
REP shrugged it off.

Cooked an FBA contest a couple of years ago and got a 10-7.5-7.5 on ribs.
Thought that was strange for my strongest meat at the time and every other judge was 9.0-9.5-10 across the board for ribs appearance/taste/tenderness.
Looked at the rest of his scores.
Of his 23 scores in all 4 categories, 21 were 10-7.5-7.5.
That is not "Judging" in any way, shape, or form!
A 7.5 is the "kiss of death" and cost me a GC.
REP said "strange", but "what can I do?"

We have a sport that started as "good ole boys" getting together to cook for a little bit of cash, maybe a trophy, and bragging rights.
The cook teams have evolved into SERIOUS competition for major cash, huge trophies, and major bragging rights with sponsors/books/BBQ Products, etc.

The judging pool has not evolved.

This is one of the reasons Mrs Kapn and I "retired".

Good Luck Y'all

TIM
__________________
"Flirtin' with Disaster" BBQ Team (RETIRED)
FBA and KCBS Cook and Judge.
Former owner of a WSM, a Smokey Joe, a Charbroil Commercial gasser (junk), the legendary "StudeDera", a FEC100, a Fast Eddy PG500, and Sherman the Wonder Trailer.
Now cooking with a Yoder YS640
Proud Pellet guy cooking on real wood.
The_Kapn is online now   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Old 02-10-2013, 03:53 PM   #14
drbbq
is One Chatty Farker
 
drbbq's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-26-04
Location: Saint Petersburg, Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Parker View Post
Why do we need a definition of if fat should be allowed on the bottom of the brisket slice? Rules like this would make the entries even more homogeneous than they are now. Taste and appearance are always going to be subjectivity which is a good thing in my opinion.
That's fine and if I had a vote I'd probably agree with you. But then the cooks have to accept that one judge likes the fat and another doesn't so one scores it high and one scores it low.
__________________
Ray Lampe
Dr. BBQ
The Honey Badger of BBQ. I just don't give a sh!t.
drbbq is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Old 02-10-2013, 03:59 PM   #15
Rich Parker
Babbling Farker
 
Join Date: 06-20-09
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbbq View Post
That's fine and if I had a vote I'd probably agree with you. But then the cooks have to accept that one judge likes the fat and another doesn't so one scores it high and one scores it low.
I agree with you, I don't see anything wrong with one judge liking a little fat on the bottom and others that don't. It will always balance its self out and good BBQ will always win.
__________________
WSM, UDS, Deep South Medium, and Victory Smoker - TheBBQSuperstore.com
Rich Parker is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Forum Custom Search: Enter your Search text below. GOOGLE will search ONLY the BBQ Brethren Forum.





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
2003 -2012 © BBQ-Brethren Inc. All rights reserved. All Content and Flaming Pig Logo are registered and protected under U.S and International Copyright and Trademarks. Content Within this Website Is Property of BBQ Brethren Inc. Reproduction or alteration is strictly prohibited.
no new posts