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View Poll Results: Should this entry have been DQ's?
Yes 12 16.67%
No 35 48.61%
No but talk to the team after turn-ins 25 34.72%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-22-2012, 03:17 PM   #1
Slamdunkpro
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Default Marking / Sculpting of entries?

Had a box come to our table that had 6 of the following: a medallion of money muscle with a ball of pulled pork perched on top topped by a shredded piece of a tube muscle. At first we though the ball in the middle was stuffing so we called the KCBS Rep over. They took the box, came back in a couple of minutes and told us that the ball wasn't stuffing yet they were DQ'ing the team for marking. Quite a bit of discussion ensued at the table after all the entries were judged as to whether this was a marked box or just very creative.

How do you define marking / sculpting
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:21 PM   #2
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I say no. To be honest, it almost sounds like our box, but then we scored pretty dog-gone low anyway.

The whole marking / sculpting is too subjective IMO anyway the way the rules are written and presented.

I have seen many boxes that were very close to what you describe and did not think any different. Just the team being creative. No one else at the tables I have judged thought different as well.

Maybe the whole marking / sculpting idea should have more defined wording. I think the team got a bum deal.

If I turn in a box with the bottom layered with chopped pork (to keep the box warm) and then money muscle and pulled pork on top, with parsley round the edge and maybe in between the pieces, is that legal?

The weight of the box alone could give away who it came from. But yet, I have seen boxes like this and nobody questions even with Master CBJ at the table.

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Old 10-22-2012, 05:01 PM   #3
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It seems to me that it was not marked. Now, almost all chicken and rib turnins are sculpted already, and pork is often arranged, not sure if that means sculpted or not. I say it should have been allowed.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:14 PM   #4
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so let's say i use a 2 inch round metal cookie cutter to keep my pulled pork in nice little circles. IT's not technically "marking or Sculpting" but it could be argued. To me it's a very vague rule that needs to be further clarified. Marking each piece of pork with a filet knife with the letter's EMS....now that's marking.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:50 PM   #5
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I personally think that it needs to be defined more in some way but then you get in the area of over regulation. The was one entry a few years ago that came across my table that the rep said wasn't sculpturing but it had to be awfully close. The pork box was made up in the form of rings like a bullseye target. While it's creative it was very close to me as being marking/sculpturing but I was a new judge at the time so maybe I overreacted.

As to your entry, I don't feel that it was as in my judges class they had a pork box where they put 6 scoops of pulled pork & I would consider your box something along those lines. It definitely pushes the boundries so until they define them better there'll be test cases & then once they set them someone I'm sure will push them out further & further.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:01 PM   #6
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i'd have to reread, but i thought the rule was written as sculpting or marking in a manner to identify the team it came from.

so, no.

however, maybe the rep, table captain, etc. had seen the box before and knew, thus a kneejerk, but that's not the cooks fault.

i think there's a good number of unique presentations that one may recognize coming across a table. hell, i've posted my boxes here, so judges could certaibly identify me.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:27 PM   #7
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i voted no.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kcbs rules
9) Meat shall not be sculptured, branded or presented in a
way to make it identifiable. Rosettes of meat slices are not
allowed. Violations of this rule will be scored a one (1) on all
criteria by all six judges.

15) The container shall not be marked in any way so as to
make the container unique or identifiable. Aluminum foil,
toothpicks, skewers, foreign material, and/or stuffing are
prohibited in the container. Marked entries or containers with
the above listed material will receive a one (1) in all criteria
from all Judges.

i cant see how a unique presentations is sculpting. There are plenty of 'signature' presentations out there. To DQ what you described is akin to DQ'in chicken lollipops. If that were the case, one can argue that turning in a box consistently and specifically with "12 Burnt ends" would be sculpting... and lets see how that one sticks.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:37 PM   #8
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I have always felt that all the trimming, scraping etc...of chicken is nuts and over the top. Let chicken be chicken.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:55 PM   #9
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Mike- thanks for bringing this up. I thought it was freakin' genius! It was a beautiful box. You know from our discussions that I disagreed when this happened.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:01 PM   #10
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I can see how based on your description that the box could be deemed to have been "presented in a way to make it identifiable" and how the meat was determined to be sculpted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by early mornin' smokin' View Post
so let's say i use a 2 inch round metal cookie cutter to keep my pulled pork in nice little circles. IT's not technically "marking or Sculpting" but it could be argued.
It's not? I would think that is exactly what sculpting is.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:23 PM   #11
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No. Could you ID the team turning it in by looking at the box? If not then it's not marking IMO. Did they sculpt little pigs or similar? If not then it's not sculpting. Based on the OP only, it doesn't sound like it met the criteria IMO. Of course I'm not a rep so take it FWIW.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:46 PM   #12
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Problem is that a lot of teams are posting pictures of their boxes. When these teams have a unique presentation then it becomes easier to identify a given team's submission, especially in areas of the country where there's a lot of judge overlap between contests.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:47 PM   #13
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While having only judged two comps and have been a cbj since August, in our class it was made pretty clear that sculpting would be obvious, not just unique presentation. Examples given were shaping into identifiable objects such as a horse, pig, other animal. Basic shapes were said to be okay. The most extreme example given was someone using a variety of sauces in different colors to "paint" a sunset of sauce on the meat.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cds9333 View Post
While having only judged two comps and have been a cbj since August, in our class it was made pretty clear that sculpting would be obvious, not just unique presentation. Examples given were shaping into identifiable objects such as a horse, pig, other animal. Basic shapes were said to be okay. The most extreme example given was someone using a variety of sauces in different colors to "paint" a sunset of sauce on the meat.
i don't see a problem with a sunset either unless the team is "sunset BBQ".
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:34 PM   #15
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without a picture, I am going to trust the reps on this one.
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