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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 07-23-2012, 05:41 PM   #1
YokeUp
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Default IBCA Judging Rules Question

For an IBCA event, each meat is judged with one number from 1-10. A pre-determined number of entries moves from the initial table to the final table where, between 15-18 entries are judged. Once again, each meat receives 1 number score per entry.

The Question: What is done in the event of a tie? Given 16, or 18 final table entries, and one score, there are bound to be ties. How are they broken? What is the procedure?

If anybody has a link to the official answer from IBCA that would also be appreciated. I was unable to find it. Thank you and God bless you.
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Unread 07-24-2012, 11:21 PM   #2
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A bump for my Louisiana BBQ Brother!
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Unread 07-25-2012, 04:10 AM   #3
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It is my understanding:

On pre-lim tables all ties go to the final table. This is why the entries on the final table will vary.

If there are ties on the final table, the judging sheets are shuffled and one from each entry is pulled out. Highest score will determine the place.
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Unread 07-25-2012, 08:53 AM   #4
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Jeff,

This is just my guess from what I've seen and not an Official IBCA answer and in fact i don't think that information is made public. First I'll state that we are never supposed to know if there was a tie because we aren't supposed to know any scores. However, when there has been a rumor of ties on brisket, it appeared that the brisket ranking was determined on the highest score in ribs then back to chicken if necessary.
However given the nature of the IBCA whole number scoring, it would seem to me that a fair process to break ties would be to start at Brisket and work back to chicken since brisket is the grand champion tie breaker. So starting with brisket final table ties, you would first revert back to the highest scoring on the preliminary table scores and if that doesn't settle it to go to the highest final table Ribs score, then to preliminary ribs score,the highest final table chicken then highest preliminary chicken then flipping a coin, playing rock paper scissors, guessing a number 1-10, drawing straws, having a foot race, playing a hand of poker, seeing who can hold their hand over hot coals or hold their breath the longest, having a staring contest, or any other form of random draw.
It would be nice if IBCA would make the actual scoring and tie-breaking information public, i just have never been able to find it if they did. Their method of not releasing final table scores or preliminary score to cooks is IMHO not a very good method since it doesn't allow cooks to use that data to try and make improvements but it is the way this sanctioning body operates. Since I make a choice to participate in their contests, i am also making a choice to play by their rules. Every year we can submit rule changes at the annual meeting. I've made two suggestions and am 0-2 in having any rule or method officially altered. To have IBCA BOD make a change seemingly would require that a significant majority of members sign a petition or some form of cohesive documentation to show that enough of their members want such a change and i don't know if anyone has ever attempted that. The only other options you have is to vote for new Board members at the next election who may support change.
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Unread 07-25-2012, 01:03 PM   #5
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Clint, I hear ya.
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Unread 07-25-2012, 03:37 PM   #6
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As backyard said. At least half of the entries on pre-lim tables move to the next level. If there are ties in the top 50% on a pre-lim table then all tied entries move to the next level. On the finals table any tied scores that affect the money/point positions are shuffled and drawn to determine position, otherwise, they just made the finals table. Example, 1st place is high score, 2-6 are tied, 7 is single, 8-15 are tied. Cards 2-6 are shuffled and drawn to determine place 2-6, cards 8-15 are shuffled and drawn to determine 8, 9 & 10, the balance of the tied cards made the finals table plus others that were on the finals table and not involved in the ties.

These procedures date back a long time and are even used in chili competitions. There is nothing anyone is trying to hide, it's just a procedure the most folks know and respect.

As far as ties goes, a team out of the Pacifice Northwest lost two tie coin flips in Las Vegas at a KCBS contest several years ago (one was a perfect 180) and it cost them $12K in total prize money. I don't think they bitched or lobbied about making major changes, they knew the rules going in. Just saying.....
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Unread 07-25-2012, 03:52 PM   #7
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I never heard of the shuffle and draw method but don't doubt its use. When i judged in a local IBCA contest, i believe i watched the head judge enter all scores in the a spreadsheet and it generated the top 10 based on whatever parameters(macro/algorithm) it was programmed to use.

I go into every IBCA contest knowing the rules and playing by them. I just think the "it ain't broke, don't fix it" method of resistance to any and all possibility for improvement gets old after a while. Our great country wasn't built on that principle but rather a continuing effort to improve and be better at everything we do. There are lots of things in the world that aren't "broke" but could still benefit from the possibility of improvement.However, it is what it is and it is what we have to work with in our area so i abide by the rules and accept the outcomes for what they are.
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Last edited by Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ; 07-25-2012 at 05:43 PM..
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Unread 07-25-2012, 05:59 PM   #8
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Contact Lynn at the IBCA website and she can answer any scoring questions you have.
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Unread 07-25-2012, 09:01 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ View Post
Jeff,

However, when there has been a rumor of ties on brisket, it appeared that the brisket ranking was determined on the highest score in ribs then back to chicken if necessary.
The nature of the double blind scoring they use wouldn't allow them to know the rib or chicken scores from any of the brisket entries.
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Unread 07-26-2012, 02:44 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbqczar View Post
Contact Lynn at the IBCA website and she can answer any scoring questions you have.
I sent a message off, directly asking the question on what the written and official procedure is to the IBCA.... I got a phone call from the Exec. Director who was not so pleased that I was asking the question. He mentioned that the procedure is detailed in the judge's handbook (not published for membership consumption), but has agreed and committed to send me a copy. He explained the process this way.....(and I am confused)

On the final table, there may be 8-10 judges who have scored the entries. At the head judges discretion, they use a number less than the total of the scoring sheets, so 2 or 3 of the sheets are set aside and not counted in the scoring ??? In the event of a tie, the score sheets that were not used are then used exclusively to break the tie ??

As you would imagine, I was very confused at this explanation and tried to make sure I understood what he was telling me and this is the best understanding I came to, again, this is what was told me over the phone, and the entire procedure is apparently written in the Judge's handbook. If anybody out there has a handbook and would post the actual language, that would help clarify for sure.
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Unread 07-26-2012, 04:09 AM   #11
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Because the judges come off the street or they sometimes use assistant cooks.....as a last resort. I thought the head judge looks for oddities in the score sheets. If one entry has 1's and 2's and just one 10, the 10 is thrown out. Or if one entry has 9's and 10's and just one 1, the 1 is thrown out. This senario may be legit, but looks suspicious, especially if assistant cooks are used. I am a one person team, so I have no problem w/ this.

I always thought they did this to elimate teams stacking the table and not judging the product fairly. Teams spend and lot of time and money and not getting a fair shake is unacceptable.

I had no idea they use thrown out sheets to break a tie.

I'm looking forward to the actual procedure. Let us know.
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Unread 07-26-2012, 04:58 AM   #12
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I just sent the formal request to the IBCA for a copy of the Judge's handbook. As soon as I have the official language, I will post it here.
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Unread 07-26-2012, 07:19 AM   #13
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Went back and read my post on the subject and realized I was not very clear on what happened to the drawn cards. I have rewritten it hopefully to make it more clear.

"On the finals table any tied scores that affect the money/point positions are shuffled and drawn to determine position, otherwise, they just made the finals table. Example, 1st place is high score, 2-6 are tied, 7 is single, 8-15 are tied. All cards are shuffled for places 2-6 and a card drawn and the judges score for tied boxes is used to determine place 2-6, if ties still exist, then another card is drawn. This procedure goes on until all ties are resolved for all tied places. If no resolution, then box numbers in question are placed in a hat and drawn for position. Tied boxes 8-15 are only positioned for places 8, 9 &10 because of GC and RGC point scoring."
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Unread 07-26-2012, 08:20 AM   #14
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This is just my opinion at a glance, but does this whole system seem unnecessarily complicated to anyone else?
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Unread 07-26-2012, 09:09 AM   #15
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As a HJ too I will say that absolute fairness to the cooks is always the main concern, everybody spent time and money to be there and all they want is a fair chance of winning. IMO the IBCA system works very very well. Is the system perfect? NO! Is any pther system perfect? NO! Is there room for improvement in all systems of judging? YES! i am a cook too so I want the same thing al the other cooks want from the system of judging. All I will comment for now.

My first post btw. Howdy from TEXAS.
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