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Unread 03-28-2012, 05:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeBBQ View Post
They're already public. Located in the download section of the KCBS website. http://kcbs.us/pdf/contest-rep-advisories-2010.pdf
I don't understand why the rules haven't been updated (other than they wouldn't fit on a single page) and the relivant rep advisories incorporated. It seems disingenuous to publish a set of rules that new cooks download and then have 20-30 rep advisories which are for practical purposes rule changes / amendments in another location.


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Originally Posted by Smoke'n Ice View Post
Have you possibly considered that a pork tenderloin can be trimmed in such a was as to resemble the "money muscle". If parting is allowed, there is nothing that would prevent this or be detectable by the reps or judges, so it would become a pulled and chunked pork butt with sliced pork tenderloin contest.
Wasn't that the reason for the parting rule in the first place?
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Unread 03-28-2012, 06:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro View Post
Wasn't that the reason for the parting rule in the first place?
Yep!
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Unread 03-29-2012, 08:54 AM   #18
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My problem with the parting rule is it should not take precedence over rule 17(g & h)

g. After cooking, all meat:
Must be held at 140° F or above OR
Cooked meat shall be cooled as follows:
Within 2 hours from 140° F to 70° F and
Within 4 hours from 70° F to 41° F or less
h. Meat that is cooked, properly cooled, and later reheated
for hot holding and serving shall be reheated so that all
parts of the food reach a temperature of at least 165° F
for a minimum of 15 seconds.

After seeing a certain cook trim his pork butt last year, I think the parting rule doesn't achieve it's intent. I'm not in favor of cold pork hitting the judging table.

This is my opinion only...
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Unread 03-29-2012, 09:04 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke'n Ice View Post
Have you possibly considered that a pork tenderloin can be trimmed in such a was as to resemble the "money muscle". If parting is allowed, there is nothing that would prevent this or be detectable by the reps or judges, so it would become a pulled and chunked pork butt with sliced pork tenderloin contest.
I've gotten plenty of pork calls over the years... so I guess I can beat the cheaters... so let them cheat. How about I cook better and just beat them that way :)

Candy is right... the parting rule is about parting it out before cooking. After it's cooked why can't I slice/chunk/pull, then sauce, and finish/hold hot like I can every other cut of meat? The rep advisory around pork not going back onto the pit after being parted... is the piece we need to get back to reality on. Now, I'm fine either way -- everyone else has to turn in cold pork too... and my scores are not effected either way... but it is near impossible to enforce that advisory, so we have to trust the other cooks... if someone is going to cheat... they were going to cheat anyway, and have it parted to begin with. I like the Parting rule... as it was written; but once my meat is cooked, let me do whatever I want with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy Sue View Post
My problem with the parting rule is it should not take precedence over rule 17(g & h)

g. After cooking, all meat:
Must be held at 140° F or above OR
Cooked meat shall be cooled as follows:
Within 2 hours from 140° F to 70° F and
Within 4 hours from 70° F to 41° F or less
h. Meat that is cooked, properly cooled, and later reheated
for hot holding and serving shall be reheated so that all
parts of the food reach a temperature of at least 165° F
for a minimum of 15 seconds.

After seeing a certain cook trim his pork butt last year, I think the parting rule doesn't achieve it's intent. I'm not in favor of cold pork hitting the judging table.

This is my opinion only...
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Unread 03-29-2012, 04:20 PM   #20
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Why not change the rule on pork butt to read:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be trimmed or separated except to remove excess fat. The meat must be cooked to a minimum internal temperature of 145 degree F. Once this temperature is reached, the pork may be removed from the cooker, separated, parted, wrapped, etc. and returned to the cooker or not. At this point in the cook cycle, rule 17, section g and h must be adhered to.
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Unread 03-29-2012, 05:28 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roksmith View Post
I don't mind the parting rule, and wouldn't mind it going a bit further. Make the entire turn in box come from a single piece of meat/slab of ribs. Other than chicken of course.
In fact if you really wanted to turn this into a skills competition, allow only a single butt, a single brisket and a single slab of ribs to be cooked. Now.. you are testing the abilities of the pitmaster.
It takes much more skill to produce suitable turn in quality meat when you only have one shot at it.
Throw me in the penalty box because I am going to agree with you and take the thread farther off topic: I think whole cooked shoulders should have to be turned in. Yes, whole, picked/pulled at the table. FWIW, I think whole chickens should have to be turned in too. And full racks of ribs. Brisket is "slices from a flat". I understand I am crazy and these things will never ever ever happen and present their own problems. So ...

Back on topic, lets ask what the intent of the "pork cut definition", and the "no parting" rule are to begin with: To ensure teams are cooking "classic" pork shoulder, in the "traditional" style. What is so wrong with that? (and if you want to argue those terms are unclear, then you will find an argument in just about anytthing you want)

As an aside, when possible, I am all for REDUCING rules in order to add clarity, rather than adding to them. It is possible.
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Unread 03-30-2012, 07:10 PM   #22
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maybe the way to fix it is not to allow parting in any category so that our rules are consistant.
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Unread 03-30-2012, 10:56 PM   #23
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I don't understand why you guys serve cold pork? Why can't you reheat the whole butt?
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Unread 03-31-2012, 12:33 AM   #24
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Why is it that we can't understand the intent of the rule. It wasn't to limit your saucing technique, it wasn't to offer you the opportunity to butterfly out the butt into a 2 ft long slab of meat, it wasn't to promote the near separation of the money muscle it was to offer a legitimate starting point that all could achieve. A weight to make sure it wasn't suckling and a large dense cut to showcase technique.


Somehow the "voices of BBQ" have turned this rule into something its not. For some reason people tend to think that the parting rule was meant for all time. Cradle to grave so to speak. Unfortunately that makes you wonder when in fact you can actually dismantle the pork to put it in the box. In fact the only way the rule, as it was written for so long, can be interpreted as they say would mean that the whole entire butt be placed in the box unmolested. Because it states "and not parted". Don't tell me thats foolish because grammatically that is the only interpretation. If you feel that at any point in the process, even at the time of box building, that the pork can be dismantled then you must accept that when the butt has been cooked and removed with possibly resting it can be dismantled. At this point your only issue is to keep it warm. Some will say "You can cheat that way" and I will reply that I could cut my butt into 16 pieces cook it however I liked and probably get away with it. Does that mean I will? In the end our trust in our fellow competitors integrity is the only thing that makes any of this work. We can't approach this as a law to be enforced but rather a guideline for competitors to follow. Which is what all of our rules are. For some reason this one has really blown up because of many different perceptions of the rule. A real powderkeg. But when all is said and done we have to realize that this society was founded by friendly people with a friendly set of guidelines to ensure as fair a contest as possible. The competitor was charged with ensuring their own integrity. The large prize pools and lucrative sponsorships and ancillary winnings have some looking for more restrictions. Something they feel will ensure a better outcome. Unfortunately it will probably only create a different outcome and in doing so may change the face of a society many like just the way it is. The membership as a whole needs to decide if we want to hold dear the traditions set forth by the founders or if we want to go forward being more of a contests then a BBQ showcase with prizes. If its all about the money then everything else falls away.

Lastly may I say that removing the pork parting rule completely would be devastating to the category and to the integrity of the rules set. Integrity is based on consistency not only in measure and principle but in action and expectation. The rules tend to inspire technique whereas the removal of a challenge such as this will dumb down the category. The need for a defined portion of meat changes if the parting rule is removed as well. Why limit to a shoulder, or part thereof, if there is not expectation of cooking it whole in a traditional manner?
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Unread 03-31-2012, 09:01 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip View Post
But when all is said and done we have to realize that this society was founded by friendly people with a friendly set of guidelines to ensure as fair a contest as possible. The competitor was charged with ensuring their own integrity. The large prize pools and lucrative sponsorships and ancillary winnings have some looking for more restrictions. Something they feel will ensure a better outcome. Unfortunately it will probably only create a different outcome and in doing so may change the face of a society many like just the way it is. The membership as a whole needs to decide if we want to hold dear the traditions set forth by the founders or if we want to go forward being more of a contests then a BBQ showcase with prizes. If its all about the money then everything else falls away.
My comments are mine, and mine alone and do not represent KCBS or the board...

Well reasoned and presented. Just as importantly, the rules/guidelines were established to create a level playing field. A past board ruled on the issue, and issued an advisory that has been read at cooks meetings. The intent? Keep the playing field level.

I know a lot of great cooks that have found methods to still cook within the rules and turn in a superior product the judges will reward them for. I have NO DOUBT that there are other cooks that are taking some shortcuts. Who is that most likely to hurt? You probably won't find many victims at the top of the ToY standings, or picking up checks on Saturday. The teams that are most likely to be harmed are those in the middle of the pack.

Personally, I have no problem seeing the parting rule going away. I didn't have a problem arguing for it at the time this was a raging debate two years ago. It was the rule at that time, and needed to be upheld for at least the remainder of that season. If someone is going to sub a tenderloin they will do it regardless. With the techniques developed I really don't see many people taking the risk, but some may. If they get caught, they need to pay the penalty. Everybody else, cook and enjoy yourselves.

Earlier in this thread it was suggested that cooks be limited to one piece of meat per category to create a great test of ability. Doesn't that also introduce more of an element of chance? Each piece of meat cooks differently. I'd hate to see someone penalized because a beautiful slab of ribs remained tough even though they appeared nice and well marbled. Beyond that, I've spoken to more than one VERY WELL KNOWN cook that only cooks one brisket or one butt. The theory being that they are monitoring fewer pieces of meat and it's easier for them.

Ultimately, I'd like to see cooks with more options rather than less.
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Unread 03-31-2012, 01:31 PM   #26
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My apologies. i seem to have missed the point of comparison with the quoted text?

Are we agreeing or disagreeing?
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Unread 04-01-2012, 01:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip View Post
My apologies. i seem to have missed the point of comparison with the quoted text?

Are we agreeing or disagreeing?
Perhaps I missed the point of yours
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Unread 04-01-2012, 09:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke'n Ice View Post
Why not change the rule on pork butt to read:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be trimmed or separated except to remove excess fat. The meat must be cooked to a minimum internal temperature of 145 degree F. Once this temperature is reached, the pork may be removed from the cooker, separated, parted, wrapped, etc. and returned to the cooker or not. At this point in the cook cycle, rule 17, section g and h must be adhered to.
Completely unenforceable. Who is going to stand around with a ThermoPen and make sure it's being upheld?
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Unread 04-02-2012, 06:38 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC View Post
Completely unenforceable. Who is going to stand around with a ThermoPen and make sure it's being upheld?
The same person who is standing around making sure we don't part the pork and put it back on.

You missed the point, temp guidelines are needed to ensure food safety based on FDA requirements and that is why they are a part of the rules now. Who enforces them, me and my cook, not the HD, at my restaurant. The HD makes the rules and we follow them. The consequences are somewhat severe if we don't, sickness, lawsuits and loss of business license.

Simplify, and bring into line with the other categories, the rules since they are only enforceable, in the most part, by the cooks, and allow them to at least practice food safety legally. Four hours in the danger zone is a lifetime for most food borne illnesses.

You put in FDA temperature guidelines as a defensible position for future actions if it becomes necessary.

Last edited by Smoke'n Ice; 04-02-2012 at 07:14 AM.. Reason: spelling
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Unread 04-02-2012, 04:58 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC View Post
Completely unenforceable. Who is going to stand around with a ThermoPen and make sure it's being upheld?
Just so I am clear, are you saying that if a rule can not be enforced, it should not be a rule?
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