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Unread 11-01-2011, 12:19 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Diva View Post
The 50 mile rule has been gone for at least 5 years.
Yep and in most areas, it needs to be back... or at least something similar.
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Unread 11-01-2011, 08:24 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC View Post
Yep and in most areas, it needs to be back... or at least something similar.

They need to dump that rule just for one area. The KC Region. Otherwise i would safely say it ahould be at least 150 miles and in some cases 200 miles.. 100 miles just isnt enough distance and hurts contests.
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Unread 11-01-2011, 09:18 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Tarheel View Post
One of my biggest concerns is the lack of attention that is being paid to these request. Unless someone voices a concern it is approved. If other organizers do not know that a contest has a request in it may be approved and they wont know it until it comes out on the website or the bull sheet.

There was a contest approved in Hampton, Va. this year that was right at or less than the 90 day requirement. It got the rubber stamp, there was a Sam's club event that weekend and one in WV that weekend. Hampton had 13 teams. And in talking to a couple of the teams there it was not good to put it mildly. That contest should have never been approved because they did not have enough time to get it together not to mention the fact that teams and judges were already committed to the other two contest.

And to kinda answer Jeff below, the 50 mile rule needs to be scraped and take a look at cooker and judge density instead. GA is one of those states that are steeping all over each other and you are ending up with non qualifiers.
Instead of the 90 day rule, how long should it be in your opinion for a first time organizer? I've got no problem with reasonable, additional requirements in those cases. As I suggested before I'd like to see letters of agreement or contracts for various infrastructure matters, roll in security as well. I think that it's reasonable to place a slightly greater burden on organizers that have no track record.

At the same time, I can't support any sort of blanket monopoly given to a contest based solely on past history of being average or better. That's why I proposed regional committees made up of members. They are in the best place to know the local issues, local teams, and local judges, to determine whether or not a given area is capable of supporting more than one contest. Just as I feel the BoD needs fresh outlooks and new ideas, I think organizers are in the same boat. The teams and judges deserve the opportunity to vote with their feet and checkbooks to determine who puts on a contest that they want to attend. Getting there first shouldn't be the ONLY criteria considered. If a new organizer comes to the board with evidence that he/she has a better location, improved amenities for the teams, greater prize pool, etc. and can substantiate that I think they deserve to be in the conversation. Otherwise we are doing a disservice to the membership. I'm in favor of doing EVERYTHING possible to make the situation work for all parties, but at the end of the day I'll cast a vote in favor of what I believe is in the best interest of the teams and judges. Without them, there are no contests.

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Originally Posted by Scottie View Post
They need to dump that rule just for one area. The KC Region. Otherwise i would safely say it ahould be at least 150 miles and in some cases 200 miles.. 100 miles just isnt enough distance and hurts contests.
Team density and saturation has been the phrase for several years. I think distance is part of the equation, but not the only factor.
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Unread 11-01-2011, 09:54 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by tmcmaster View Post
I think the easiest way to get CBJ's to cook with teams is for teams to volunteer. I know I for one would LOVE to have a CBJ in my site at EVERY contest. I would only ask for honest assessment of the finished product as a judge and to supply half of the 'refreshments' for the weekend.

I would also be willing to be part of a cooks consil to help the judges and judging classes be run more effectivly and give the judges and prospective judges a better working knowledge of ALL aspects of the cook. From set-up to tear-down.

Maybe I am in the minority on this, and if so, I will keep my opinions internal, but I think ANY process that gives the judging base a broader understanding of the entirety of the cook can not be measured in dollars or cents. The KCBS is (as far as I know) a non-profit entity, so spending money to fullfil the "teach" portion of "celebrate, teach, preserve and promote barbeque as a culinary technique, sport and art form..." should be emphasised.
I would welcome a CBJ under my cook tent any time. The sharing of ideas, Q philosophies and experiences are worth it, and any time I can get another's feedback on my finished product helps me to continue to grow and improve as a cook.

After taking my judging class this past year, I think the idea of a "cooks council" at a judging class is excellent. I was disappointed that the only definition of what a score should be (like the difference between a 7 or an 8 ) came only from the one person teaching the class. He also did not allow table captains that night even though there were cooks/experienced judges physically there volunteering to do so. I would have liked to have a table captain during my class who could've answered MANY of my table's questions whereas the solitary teacher was not able to do. While he was truly experienced and passionate, and his opinion on what each score should be was appreciated and valued, scoring is too subjective not to have a second opinion...especially for a new judge. A Q&A period with a panel of cooks/judges with varying levels of experience at the end of the class would truly have been beneficial.

This past weekend, I had the opportunity to hang out with a team during turn ins who also happened to be hosting a CBJ for his master certification. No talk of specific rubs, injections, recipes, or techniques took place and only information that the cook wanted us to know was shared. As a cook, other than seeing the appearance of the boxes and watching their timing, I did not walk away with any more secrets than I had in my bag of tricks before. However, the conversations between the cook and judge were awesome! The cook was able to give the most detailed explanation (albeit his opinion) of what each category might be scored based on that day's finished product. It's those conversations that have the greatest impact with me as cook and a new judge.
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Unread 11-01-2011, 10:04 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by smokin' peaches View Post
This past weekend, I had the opportunity to hang out with a team during turn ins who also happened to be hosting a CBJ for his master certification. No talk of specific rubs, injections, recipes, or techniques took place and only information that the cook wanted us to know was shared.

This is exactly how it can & should work, thanx!
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Unread 11-01-2011, 11:39 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottie View Post
They need to dump that rule just for one area. The KC Region. Otherwise i would safely say it ahould be at least 150 miles and in some cases 200 miles.. 100 miles just isnt enough distance and hurts contests.
The 50 or even 150 mile rule would destroy comps in Michigan. The rule should be smart enough to take in consideration the team density and past years team totals before making the decision to sanction.
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Unread 11-01-2011, 12:49 PM   #97
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Before the board starts invoking the 50, 100, 150 or whatever mile rule to protect comps they need to scrape the tarnish off the KCBS sanctioning "star". Around here organizers still talk about the Lakeland debacle. The other complaint I hear in the northeast is that KCBS sanctioning is expensive for what the organizer actually gets. Invoke distance rules in the tightly packed north east and all that will do is make NEBS, MABA, BBQ Brethren, FBA, GBA and other bodies busier. There are other sanctioning bodies besides KCBS. Comps aren't going to fold because KCBS says no. Given the choice between cooking another sanctioning body and not cooking at all cooks are going to cook.
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Unread 11-01-2011, 03:24 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
Instead of the 90 day rule, how long should it be in your opinion for a first time organizer? I've got no problem with reasonable, additional requirements in those cases. As I suggested before I'd like to see letters of agreement or contracts for various infrastructure matters, roll in security as well. I think that it's reasonable to place a slightly greater burden on organizers that have no track record.

At the same time, I can't support any sort of blanket monopoly given to a contest based solely on past history of being average or better. That's why I proposed regional committees made up of members. They are in the best place to know the local issues, local teams, and local judges, to determine whether or not a given area is capable of supporting more than one contest. Just as I feel the BoD needs fresh outlooks and new ideas, I think organizers are in the same boat. The teams and judges deserve the opportunity to vote with their feet and checkbooks to determine who puts on a contest that they want to attend. Getting there first shouldn't be the ONLY criteria considered. If a new organizer comes to the board with evidence that he/she has a better location, improved amenities for the teams, greater prize pool, etc. and can substantiate that I think they deserve to be in the conversation. Otherwise we are doing a disservice to the membership. I'm in favor of doing EVERYTHING possible to make the situation work for all parties, but at the end of the day I'll cast a vote in favor of what I believe is in the best interest of the teams and judges. Without them, there are no contests.



Team density and saturation has been the phrase for several years. I think distance is part of the equation, but not the only factor.
I would say it takes a minimum off 6 months to get one under control for someone who is good and well orginized. If someone comes to me or is refered to me the first thing I tell them is give yourself a year to do it. Pick a date a year in advance. That gives you time to get people together, sponsors lined up, location secured, amenities covered, advertizing inplace.

You say if they come to the table with all of the extras, money, place, ect. They need to be in the conversation. I have seen that happen, they come in with a song and dance and it turns into a one time wonder and is gone. Then the event that has been there ends up hurt and may not be able to recover. bigger is not always the answer either. A track record of being consistant or continuing to grow would weight heavier in my mind. And you have to protect that. It will end up being a case by case basis. Maybe the regional concept will help narrow it down or provide the board more information that they are currently getting.
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Unread 11-02-2011, 01:43 PM   #99
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I see a lot of your points here and I understand that to accomplish a fair solution, several factors need to come into play... mileage, team density, contest density and, to a degree, other sanctioning bodies (if KCBS really wants to "get the job" so to speak). What that says to me in looking at the bigger picture is that contests should never be presented to the board for approval without significant investigation and taking a look at all of these factors, not just mileage. Good thing we have a sanctioning committee! In that regard, I believe it should be filled by members of KCBS who reside in all regions of the country so that someone who should be "in the know" about team and contest density can have an input in nearly every instance. And to remain impartial, I don't believe any of them should be organizers.
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Unread 11-02-2011, 04:11 PM   #100
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So with all the talk of improprieties, lack of transparency, etc. within the BoD are any candidates willing to stand up for the writing and signing of a public Code of Ethics or something similar for all board members? I know an argument can be made that it really shouldn't be necessary, but in my opinion it sure would go a long ways towards suppressing the knee-jerk tinfoil hat instincts that a lot of us dues-paying grunts have.
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Unread 11-02-2011, 06:20 PM   #101
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Just a time out here on the discussion to thank Jorge, Jeff, Steve, and Dave for jumping into every topic and being frank in their response. Communication and transparency can give many a reason to vote for a candidate, but it can also give many a reason not to. At least they are having the dialog. I don't see anyone else doing it at the same level they are. I can only hope that this level of communication would continue after elected.

Of the current BOD, Candy does a great job of communication in terms of reach. Not that others don't, but my opinion is that she tries to interface with the membership more than normal. That said, Paul Kirk will sign an autograph if you buy a book. A true man of the people.

Like them or not, you can't deny that the four on the group ticket are serious about this and aren't sugar coating issues or ideas. Thanks, guys. Good luck.
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Unread 11-02-2011, 06:26 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC View Post
I see a lot of your points here and I understand that to accomplish a fair solution, several factors need to come into play... mileage, team density, contest density and, to a degree, other sanctioning bodies (if KCBS really wants to "get the job" so to speak). What that says to me in looking at the bigger picture is that contests should never be presented to the board for approval without significant investigation and taking a look at all of these factors, not just mileage. Good thing we have a sanctioning committee! In that regard, I believe it should be filled by members of KCBS who reside in all regions of the country so that someone who should be "in the know" about team and contest density can have an input in nearly every instance. And to remain impartial, I don't believe any of them should be organizers.

Bravo. I really like that.

I don't know if organizers need to be excluded. They offer a perspective that teams, reps and judges might not have. Any of those people can be bias to an area, an organization, a contest, an organizer as much as an organizer can. Teams could be the most biased in the whole crowd if they want a second contest so they can bottom feed by diluting the level of competition at both contests. The committee should be able to govern itself when someone in the group seems to close to an issue. And if not, you've to the BOD to veto any committee decision. Not a perfect process, but you've got a great idea of having regional representation in that committee. If one was ever a prime place for regional representation, that committee seems to be the obvious choice.
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Unread 11-02-2011, 07:11 PM   #103
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I for one am glad to see discussion on the sanctioning process.Most folks dont realize it yet but in a state with 4 contests in 2011 and 3 of them were on consecutive weekends there has been a new contest on the schedule for the same weekend as one of the existing contests .All indications are that all 4 contests from this year are coming back so we would have one in June then 4 in a 3 week period in August . With the double header being one friday /sat and the other sat/sun being a 5 hour drive apart .OK so its doable to do both right ? Second contest is on an Island.... last ferry runs long before being able to get from first contest to second even leaving as soon as the last turn in is handed off. I am in no way wanting to discourage people from organizing a contest but damn please think what your doing to the people trying to compete .
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Unread 11-02-2011, 07:22 PM   #104
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I for one am glad to see discussion on the sanctioning process.Most folks dont realize it yet but in a state with 4 contests in 2011 and 3 of them were on consecutive weekends there has been a new contest on the schedule for the same weekend as one of the existing contests .All indications are that all 4 contests from this year are coming back so we would have one in June then 4 in a 3 week period in August . With the double header being one friday /sat and the other sat/sun being a 5 hour drive apart .OK so its doable to do both right ? Second contest is on an Island.... last ferry runs long before being able to get from first contest to second even leaving as soon as the last turn in is handed off. I am in no way wanting to discourage people from organizing a contest but damn please think what your doing to the people trying to compete .
Coz,
I think your example is a prime example of what is obviously being done wrong. I am a candidate for the BOD along with some other very insightful people. I think I would bring a vast knowledge of logistics and planning knowledge to the table. While I believe most contests are planned and carried out with the best intentions the break down in communication among organizers and the KCBS needs to be eleviated.
In my field of pharmaceutical research we deal with similar issues as they relate to conducting the medical research that we conduct. I have been very fortunate to experience and to have been a part of the team of researchers that helps physicians, patients, and pharmaceutical companies best utilize research sites, spread the patient load, and do what is best for the patients. In this case we need to accomodate the judges, contestants, organizers,reps, and the host communities. There are numerous variables and again, I believe I can bring a knowledge and skill set to the BOD to complete the equation with the given variables.
Just one candidate's point of view.
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Unread 11-03-2011, 06:34 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC View Post
I see a lot of your points here and I understand that to accomplish a fair solution, several factors need to come into play... mileage, team density, contest density and, to a degree, other sanctioning bodies (if KCBS really wants to "get the job" so to speak). What that says to me in looking at the bigger picture is that contests should never be presented to the board for approval without significant investigation and taking a look at all of these factors, not just mileage. Good thing we have a sanctioning committee! In that regard, I believe it should be filled by members of KCBS who reside in all regions of the country so that someone who should be "in the know" about team and contest density can have an input in nearly every instance. And to remain impartial, I don't believe any of them should be organizers.
Only one thing I don't agree with is none should be organizers, who else is going to know what it takes to put one of these contest on. Unless you have done that how can you decide if someone is ready to go foward. I can see where you are going with it but the same can be said of any group you put together. The group needs to be a trustworthy and knowledegable and experenced one that can get it done together.
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