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For the Board *On Topic Only* Strictly moderated. NO BAD KARMA! This forum is for questions and discussions you would like reviewed by members of the KCBS(or other BBQ orgs) Board of Directors. A clean and direct place where they do not have to wade thru day to day chatter.


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Unread 10-30-2011, 08:54 PM   #76
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How is requiring a judge to cook with a team benefit the team? Most cooks keep their recipes and processes guarded to put it mildly. Why would they want to give a stranger access to them?
Many cooks also teach classes, very few do 1 on 1 training like is being mentioned here. What do you think that would be worth? If a judge really wants to find out what it takes they can sign up for a class and spend thier money like anyone else. There are plenty of classes that are run on a simulated competition schedule.
I do think as some of you have mentioned, the CBJ class needs to be completely revamped. The current class is not helping anyone and is basically just a buy a badge program
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Unread 10-31-2011, 08:04 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzzlebrake View Post
How is requiring a judge to cook with a team benefit the team? Most cooks keep their recipes and processes guarded to put it mildly. Why would they want to give a stranger access to them?
Many cooks also teach classes, very few do 1 on 1 training like is being mentioned here. What do you think that would be worth? If a judge really wants to find out what it takes they can sign up for a class and spend thier money like anyone else. There are plenty of classes that are run on a simulated competition schedule.
I do think as some of you have mentioned, the CBJ class needs to be completely revamped. The current class is not helping anyone and is basically just a buy a badge program
Cooks don't have to give secrets away when hosting a judge, all of my rubs, injections and sauces are made up ahead so they would not have a clue what is in them. Teams that are willing to allow judges to observe know what they will and will not let them see. It is not something that a judges has to be standing over your shoulder every minite. It is a time to get to know them, what there concept or vision is of the bbq they have been tasting and for them to get to know the cook and his ideas and visions for bbq as well. It is so a judge that does not cook competitively sees the extra effort and detail that goes into producing a product for competition and how diffrent it can be from just throwing it on the grill.

will it increase the scores they give probably not. Will it make them think about it more and be more attentive to there job, hopefully so.

If a judges is trying to decide is it a 7 or an 8, hopefully those that know the whole process and what a cook goes thru will give the benifit of doubt to the cook and score it an 8.

If a judge is looking at a entry for appearance and wants to give it a 7, maybe those who have been thru the process will think about it and ask themselfs how could I put it in the box to make it a 9. If you cant find a way to put it in the box to make it better then it must be a 9.
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Unread 10-31-2011, 08:53 AM   #78
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I think the easiest way to get CBJ's to cook with teams is for teams to volunteer. I know I for one would LOVE to have a CBJ in my site at EVERY contest. I would only ask for honest assessment of the finished product as a judge and to supply half of the 'refreshments' for the weekend.

I would also be willing to be part of a cooks consil to help the judges and judging classes be run more effectivly and give the judges and prospective judges a better working knowledge of ALL aspects of the cook. From set-up to tear-down.

Maybe I am in the minority on this, and if so, I will keep my opinions internal, but I think ANY process that gives the judging base a broader understanding of the entirety of the cook can not be measured in dollars or cents. The KCBS is (as far as I know) a non-profit entity, so spending money to fullfil the "teach" portion of "celebrate, teach, preserve and promote barbeque as a culinary technique, sport and art form..." should be emphasised.
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Unread 10-31-2011, 10:19 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarheel View Post

If a judges is trying to decide is it a 7 or an 8, hopefully those that know the whole process and what a cook goes thru will give the benifit of doubt to the cook and score it an 8.
The process is really irrelevant. Its either a 7 or 8, how hard a cook worked to produce competition barbecue has nothing to do with it.
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Unread 10-31-2011, 11:04 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ique View Post
The process is really irrelevant. Its either a 7 or 8, how hard a cook worked to produce competition barbecue has nothing to do with it.
So why does a CBJ have to cook with a team for Master status? Because clearly something about a judge cooking with a team is required. Why only for Master Judge?
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Unread 10-31-2011, 11:47 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarheel View Post
Well I think we have got the judge thing stired up good.There are some options and we can all agree that some of those options need to done sooner rather than later.

Now for another topic, what are your views on the sanctioning of contest. It seems to be that the current board has been using a rubber stamp for the most part without reguard for existing contest or weither or not a contest is ready. Examples would be approving contest where there is just not enough teams to support it. Should there be closer attention paid to other factors to ensure a sucssesful contest by the kcbs or just approve it and collect the money.

I'm getting to this late, after a weekend of catching up with the 'honey-do' list.

I've listened to the meetings after the fact, and in some cases I believe you were pleading your case. I believe I understand the issue, as well as your concern. The first part of my answer is that yes, we need to take a closer look based on recent experience and continued growth. My proposed solution would be regional sanctioning committees to provide information and suggestions to the BoD based on personal knowledge and experience. There should be no question that members within a given region would have sufficient contacts to assess the level of interest in proposed contests. That type of input would carry more weight with me when it was time to vote on sanctioning.

That being said, being the first contest in an area should not guarantee exclusive rights to a date or area of coverage. If an organizer wants to phone it in, after 'X' number of years, and someone else can put a better package together then I think the new organizer deserves a shot. I think that in that case, there needs to be a greater level of scrutiny to insure that the organizer is going to be able to produce what they promise. That burden should fall on the BoD and office staff (letters of agreement, contracts, etc...). The teams and judges will vote with their feet and checkbooks.

Going a step further, I know that there are issues and concerns about some of the larger contests with larger prize lists. There were conflicts with Sam's Club this year, and I know for a fact that some teams had to make choices regarding that series and the Royal for example. That shouldn't happen, and is avoidable with proper planning. Using regional committees I think that it would be possible to get enough information to determine what contests were considered to be "crown jewels" for each area and plan accordingly to avoid conflict. It doesn't guarantee that there won't be a conflict, but it's a step in the right direction and involves membership in the process.

I think it's possible to find more balance to benefit everyone, if EVERYONE is willing to contribute.
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Unread 10-31-2011, 01:15 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmcmaster View Post
So why does a CBJ have to cook with a team for Master status? Because clearly something about a judge cooking with a team is required. Why only for Master Judge?
Doesnt seem like a bad idea for that master judge certification. There is a chance the judge could learn a few more things about barbecue.

The idea that judges would be more compassionate if they cooked with a team is the part that I disagree with.
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Unread 10-31-2011, 01:35 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ique View Post
Doesnt seem like a bad idea for that master judge certification. There is a chance the judge could learn a few more things about barbecue.

The idea that judges would be more compassionate if they cooked with a team is the part that I disagree with.
Of course... I think if they cooked with a team they would have a better understanding of BBQ as a whole.
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Unread 10-31-2011, 02:36 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ique View Post
The process is really irrelevant. Its either a 7 or 8, how hard a cook worked to produce competition barbecue has nothing to do with it.
This is what I instruct the judges at my contest at the judges meeting.

If you are trying to decide if it is a 7 or an 8 it is an 8. Give the cook the benifit of the doubt.

A judge that has cooked with a team would understand that a little better.

Just my opinion after discussions with some judges.
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Unread 10-31-2011, 04:30 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarheel View Post
Now for another topic, what are your views on the sanctioning of contest. It seems to be that the current board has been using a rubber stamp for the most part without reguard for existing contest or weither or not a contest is ready. Examples would be approving contest where there is just not enough teams to support it. Should there be closer attention paid to other factors to ensure a sucssesful contest by the kcbs or just approve it and collect the money.
Here in the Kansas City area, there are so many teams that we can have two or three contests across the region on the same day and not lack for teams at any one of them. I know that's not the case in many other areas and I do believe KCBS needs to look a little more closely at what they approve for sanctioning. There needs to be some sensitivity to the established contests and some attention paid to the "50 mile rule".
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Unread 10-31-2011, 05:28 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
I'm getting to this late, after a weekend of catching up with the 'honey-do' list.

I've listened to the meetings after the fact, and in some cases I believe you were pleading your case. I believe I understand the issue, as well as your concern. The first part of my answer is that yes, we need to take a closer look based on recent experience and continued growth. My proposed solution would be regional sanctioning committees to provide information and suggestions to the BoD based on personal knowledge and experience. There should be no question that members within a given region would have sufficient contacts to assess the level of interest in proposed contests. That type of input would carry more weight with me when it was time to vote on sanctioning.

That being said, being the first contest in an area should not guarantee exclusive rights to a date or area of coverage. If an organizer wants to phone it in, after 'X' number of years, and someone else can put a better package together then I think the new organizer deserves a shot. I think that in that case, there needs to be a greater level of scrutiny to insure that the organizer is going to be able to produce what they promise. That burden should fall on the BoD and office staff (letters of agreement, contracts, etc...). The teams and judges will vote with their feet and checkbooks.

Going a step further, I know that there are issues and concerns about some of the larger contests with larger prize lists. There were conflicts with Sam's Club this year, and I know for a fact that some teams had to make choices regarding that series and the Royal for example. That shouldn't happen, and is avoidable with proper planning. Using regional committees I think that it would be possible to get enough information to determine what contests were considered to be "crown jewels" for each area and plan accordingly to avoid conflict. It doesn't guarantee that there won't be a conflict, but it's a step in the right direction and involves membership in the process.

I think it's possible to find more balance to benefit everyone, if EVERYONE is willing to contribute.

One of my biggest concerns is the lack of attention that is being paid to these request. Unless someone voices a concern it is approved. If other organizers do not know that a contest has a request in it may be approved and they wont know it until it comes out on the website or the bull sheet.

There was a contest approved in Hampton, Va. this year that was right at or less than the 90 day requirement. It got the rubber stamp, there was a Sam's club event that weekend and one in WV that weekend. Hampton had 13 teams. And in talking to a couple of the teams there it was not good to put it mildly. That contest should have never been approved because they did not have enough time to get it together not to mention the fact that teams and judges were already committed to the other two contest.

And to kinda answer Jeff below, the 50 mile rule needs to be scraped and take a look at cooker and judge density instead. GA is one of those states that are steeping all over each other and you are ending up with non qualifiers.
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Unread 10-31-2011, 05:42 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ique View Post
Doesnt seem like a bad idea for that master judge certification. There is a chance the judge could learn a few more things about barbecue.

The idea that judges would be more compassionate if they cooked with a team is the part that I disagree with.
If someone who is trying to get there master and could learn a few more things about barbecue why couldn't every judge learn a few more things. The sooner they learn those those things the better educated they are the better able they will be to distinguish between that 8 and 9.

It is not about being compassionate it is being a little more educated and aware of the added value and detail or why a piece of meat is in a box a certain way or why it looks a certain way. The more educated they are hopefully the better judge they are.
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Unread 10-31-2011, 10:44 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarheel View Post
Well I think we have got the judge thing stired up good.There are some options and we can all agree that some of those options need to done sooner rather than later.

Now for another topic, what are your views on the sanctioning of contest. It seems to be that the current board has been using a rubber stamp for the most part without reguard for existing contest or weither or not a contest is ready. Examples would be approving contest where there is just not enough teams to support it. Should there be closer attention paid to other factors to ensure a sucssesful contest by the kcbs or just approve it and collect the money.
I also think(as do some others) that BOD members should not be able to organize,coordinate, and/or put on ANY contests as long as they are BOD members,seems a blatent conflict of interest that I don't know if it has ever been addressed,but I think it should be.
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Unread 10-31-2011, 10:49 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by bbqczar View Post
I also think(as do some others) that BOD members should not be able to organize,coordinate, and/or put on ANY contests as long as they are BOD members,seems a blatent conflict of interest that I don't know if it has ever been addressed,but I think it should be.
OK so why is that? Organizers do not receive any kind of payment from KCBS for putting on a contest unless you happen to be chosen for one KCBS is running. What in the world could POSSIBLY be considered a "blatant conflict of interest" about being an organizer and on the board? As an organizer, I get the same assistance from my reps that everyone else gets, nothing special. And I pay out our contest's cash to KCBS for the number of teams I have and for rep expenses, just like everyone else. Can you please elaborate on your statement?
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Unread 11-01-2011, 12:00 AM   #90
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The 50 mile rule has been gone for at least 5 years.
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