Question about judging

[Trollin]

Greetings all. I recently became a certified KCBS judge and will be judging my first contest soon. I apologize in advance if this question has been asked before and if so, maybe someone can post the thread...... Anyway, for you judges, what does each number 9, 8, 7, and so on represent for you personally? Meaning, do you give a 9 because you may pay for the rib you just tasted at a restaurant or a 6 because you see a lot of room for improvement???? I know the more I judge the better I'll be at what constitutes an 8 over a 7 and so on. I hope my question makes sense but if not, let me know and I'll try to explain.

I'm judging to get a taste (no pun) for what's out there in order to improve my bbq for future competitions. I've done some backyard comps and festivals, finising mid pack so there's room for improvement....

[tigerpaw]

Greetings back and welcome! I am a first year judge though do not have a team or plan to compete. Only to do somewhat similar and enjoy as well as improve my own BBQ at home.

Your question is one that I think you will get as many varying answers to as there are ways to BBQ.

Myself, I was trained in a class and I do not recall ever being told one way or another on how to start. I will say this past weekend, several judges and I were sitting around and this topic came up - How do you start your scoring? Do you start at 9 and judge the item in front of you downward or do you start at 5 and adjust from there up or down.

My suggestion which I have found helpful is talk with contest rep when they have a chance. They will be running around with many things to do but offer to help them and then bend their ear for information. I also HIGHLY suggest looking for someone who is listed as a Master Judge and sit with them for a bit discussing their thoughts. Also after each presentation is judged, listen to those judges at your table. Make a mental note of how you scored the selections in front of you. They will begin comparing notes - mine was salty, too dry, too much sauce on it, fell apart (ribs/chicken), would not pull apart (brisket) etc. etc. etc. Offer your thoughts but let them talk and hear what they have to say.

I can tell you what you like, may not be what the other 5 like at your table. But then again that could be reversed as well. And it may be as simple as your piece of whatever was just plain bad. If so and you give it a low score, give the team the reason why. Fill out that comment card and turn it in Not that it was bad, but is was salty, it was overcooked and dry, it was over sauced outside but dry inside, my piece was burnt on bottom, etc. I had a piece of chicken this past weekend that nobody else at my table had so my score was WAY off from theirs. I filled out a card and turned it in so they at least knew why.

One wish I do have but does not happen is for KCBS to send back to new judges for say the first ten events, their scores in each category along with that of their table mates. I don’t need their names, just show me mine and theirs - Mine 978 The other five average 988 or even all 5 scores 988, 898, 889, 898, 999 , then I am near where I need to be. I need to improve how I judge TASTE. But if I am 978 and they are 867 or 786 then there are several issues I need to change. But we don’t get that feed back so have no real way of knowing where we are. So listen to those at your table and feed off that info.

Good luck and listen and learn as you go.

[boogiesnap]

they didn't teach you that in class???

6 is average.

go up or down from there.

[QansasjayhawQ]

Hey there, Trollin - that's actually a very good question and not a troll . . . so why the name? In any case, welcome to the site and be sure to introduce yourself in Cattle Call.

I started judging for exactly the same reason(s) you give. In our first contest, our head cook thought we were going to walk away with it all. When we finished almost last in every category (except chicken where we finished 16th out of 60) I had the thought 'I wonder what it is that the judges are looking for?'.

And so I started the journey of becoming (the easy part) and learning how to judge (the long, difficult process).

To answer your question, I think that the official KCBS descriptions really do sum up the qualities of the entries - however, you will see after about ten events judged that '6 - Average' becomes more what you expect of the typical commercial BBQ chain restaurant . . . and it goes up from there - and down, of course.

9 excellent, 8 very good, 7 above average, 6 average, 5 below
average, 4 poor, 3 bad, and 2 inedible

I would have to say that the number of entries in a KCBS competition that are generally lower in quality than, say, Famous Dave's, are very low. Only entries that are raw and bloody or absolutely soaked in lighter fluid get a 2.

Other than that, I would say that the best restaurant bbq I've eaten would score a 6 overall.

BUT!!!! Here's an important distinction . . .

You are not comparing one entry against the other. You are deciding how well each entry achieves BBQ excellence. Guidelines for tenderness are provided in the CD that is played at the end of the judge's meeting.

You are also not comparing entries against commercial BBQ or against your dad's BBQ.

You really find yourself after several contests realizing that the important elements of taste are that all of the elements are in harmony. A well balanced symphony, jazz combo, rock band or country band, each can be pleasant to listen to. But if the drummer is playing too aggressively or the bass player doesn't know where the beat is, or the strings are squeaking . . . then the performance is less enjoyable.

So, really, an experienced KCBS judge is certainly capable of judging any style of BBQ . . . but whatever it is, it has to be well executed.

I hope this helps and I'm certain that many others will have their opinions . . . but that's been my experience, for what it's worth.

Have fun and I hope to see you on the BBQ judging circuit.

[boogiesnap]

Originally Posted by tigerpaw

Greetings back and welcome! I am a first year judge though do not have a team or plan to compete. Only to do somewhat similar and enjoy as well as improve my own BBQ at home.

Your question is one that I think you will get as many varying answers to as there are ways to BBQ.

Myself, I was trained in a class and I do not recall ever being told one way or another on how to start. I will say this past weekend, several judges and I were sitting around and this topic came up - How do you start your scoring? Do you start at 9 and judge the item in front of you downward or do you start at 5 and adjust from there up or down.

My suggestion which I have found helpful is talk with contest rep when they have a chance. They will be running around with many things to do but offer to help them and then bend their ear for information. I also HIGHLY suggest looking for someone who is listed as a Master Judge and sit with them for a bit discussing their thoughts. Also after each presentation is judged, listen to those judges at your table. Make a mental note of how you scored the selections in front of you. They will begin comparing notes - mine was salty, too dry, too much sauce on it, fell apart (ribs/chicken), would not pull apart (brisket) etc. etc. etc. Offer your thoughts but let them talk and hear what they have to say.

I can tell you what you like, may not be what the other 5 like at your table. But then again that could be reversed as well. And it may be as simple as your piece of whatever was just plain bad. If so and you give it a low score, give the team the reason why. Fill out that comment card and turn it in Not that it was bad, but is was salty, it was overcooked and dry, it was over sauced outside but dry inside, my piece was burnt on bottom, etc. I had a piece of chicken this past weekend that nobody else at my table had so my score was WAY off from theirs. I filled out a card and turned it in so they at least knew why.

One wish I do have but does not happen is for KCBS to send back to new judges for say the first ten events, their scores in each category along with that of their table mates. I don’t need their names, just show me mine and theirs - Mine 978 The other five average 988 or even all 5 scores 988, 898, 889, 898, 999 , then I am near where I need to be. I need to improve how I judge TASTE. But if I am 978 and they are 867 or 786 then there are several issues I need to change. But we don’t get that feed back so have no real way of knowing where we are. So listen to those at your table and feed off that info.

Good luck and listen and learn as you go.

7 6 8 in taste isn't too far a swing over 3 judges.

669 or 996 then you may have something.

but taste is subjective. i suggest rethink your approach.

[QansasjayhawQ]

Originally Posted by tigerpaw

Greetings back and welcome! I am a first year judge though do not have a team or plan to compete. Only to do somewhat similar and enjoy as well as improve my own BBQ at home.

Your question is one that I think you will get as many varying answers to as there are ways to BBQ.

Myself, I was trained in a class and I do not recall ever being told one way or another on how to start. I will say this past weekend, several judges and I were sitting around and this topic came up - How do you start your scoring? Do you start at 9 and judge the item in front of you downward or do you start at 5 and adjust from there up or down.

My suggestion which I have found helpful is talk with contest rep when they have a chance. They will be running around with many things to do but offer to help them and then bend their ear for information. I also HIGHLY suggest looking for someone who is listed as a Master Judge and sit with them for a bit discussing their thoughts. Also after each presentation is judged, listen to those judges at your table. Make a mental note of how you scored the selections in front of you. They will begin comparing notes - mine was salty, too dry, too much sauce on it, fell apart (ribs/chicken), would not pull apart (brisket) etc. etc. etc. Offer your thoughts but let them talk and hear what they have to say.

I can tell you what you like, may not be what the other 5 like at your table. But then again that could be reversed as well. And it may be as simple as your piece of whatever was just plain bad. If so and you give it a low score, give the team the reason why. Fill out that comment card and turn it in Not that it was bad, but is was salty, it was overcooked and dry, it was over sauced outside but dry inside, my piece was burnt on bottom, etc. I had a piece of chicken this past weekend that nobody else at my table had so my score was WAY off from theirs. I filled out a card and turned it in so they at least knew why.

One wish I do have but does not happen is for KCBS to send back to new judges for say the first ten events, their scores in each category along with that of their table mates. I don’t need their names, just show me mine and theirs - Mine 978 The other five average 988 or even all 5 scores 988, 898, 889, 898, 999 , then I am near where I need to be. I need to improve how I judge TASTE. But if I am 978 and they are 867 or 786 then there are several issues I need to change. But we don’t get that feed back so have no real way of knowing where we are. So listen to those at your table and feed off that info.

Good luck and listen and learn as you go.

Excellent advise!

Don't be afraid to speak up and ask questions of the other judges. There's a ton of experience and talent out there to take advantage of - but you must be brave and strike up a conversation.

[boogiesnap]

Originally Posted by QansasjayhawQ

Hey there, Trollin - that's actually a very good question and not a troll . . . so why the name? In any case, welcome to the site and be sure to introduce yourself in Cattle Call.

I started judging for exactly the same reason(s) you give. In our first contest, our head cook thought we were going to walk away with it all. When we finished almost last in every category (except chicken where we finished 16th out of 60) I had the thought 'I wonder what it is that the judges are looking for?'.

And so I started the journey of becoming (the easy part) and learning how to judge (the long, difficult process).

To answer your question, I think that the official KCBS descriptions really do sum up the qualities of the entries - however, you will see after about ten events judged that '6 - Average' becomes more what you expect of the typical commercial BBQ chain restaurant . . . and it goes up from there - and down, of course.

9 excellent, 8 very good, 7 above average, 6 average, 5 below
average, 4 poor, 3 bad, and 2 inedible

I would have to say that the number of entries in a KCBS competition that are generally lower in quality than, say, Famous Dave's, are very low. Only entries that are raw and bloody or absolutely soaked in lighter fluid get a 2.

Other than that, I would say that the best restaurant bbq I've eaten would score a 6 overall.

BUT!!!! Here's an important distinction . . .

You are not comparing one entry against the other. You are deciding how well each entry achieves BBQ excellence. Guidelines for tenderness are provided in the CD that is played at the end of the judge's meeting.

You are also not comparing entries against commercial BBQ or against your dad's BBQ.

You really find yourself after several contests realizing that the important elements of taste are that all of the elements are in harmony. A well balanced symphony, jazz combo, rock band or country band, each can be pleasant to listen to. But if the drummer is playing too aggressively or the bass player doesn't know where the beat is, or the strings are squeaking . . . then the performance is less enjoyable.

So, really, an experienced KCBS judge is certainly capable of judging any style of BBQ . . . but whatever it is, it has to be well executed.

I hope this helps and I'm certain that many others will have their opinions . . . but that's been my experience, for what it's worth.

Have fun and I hope to see you on the BBQ judging circuit.

agreed, my friend...

but the fact a CBJ has to ask that question here leaves me dumbfounded.

[QansasjayhawQ]

Originally Posted by boogiesnap

agreed, my friend...

but the fact a CBJ has to ask that question here leaves me dumbfounded.

Yeah - <sigh> I know.

So many people think that, just because they take the judging class, they know what they're doing.

Fact is, I was lost for at least five contests . . . after which I started to get a clue . . . and it was ten contests before I actually felt a rhythm and familiarity to the process.

It was only after 15 events judged that I began to feel competent and it was 20 contests judged before I started feeling like I was giving each entry a fair shake.

BUT - Trollin's willingness to admit that he has no clue about where the judging starts - that's admirable in my book.

So many judges don't offer advice and are far too quiet in my opinion. That silence does nothing to help educate the new judges. I started sharing what I knew (admittedly not a lot in the beginning) after the first contest judged - just like tigerpaw did above. At the time, I knew it was a case of 'the blind leading the blind' but with each single contest, I did learn a little bit more. And I continue to learn more, even after having reached over 30 contests this year. I doubt that I (and I hope that I don't ever) reach a point where I 'know it all'. If I do, then I'll be no good as a judge anymore.

But what they tell you in judging class is merely a beginning reference point. Only a lot of experience can fill in the largely missing blanks.

[boogiesnap]

i agree. there is no such thing as a stupid question.

but, does it take a master judge credentials like yours, to know how to judge.

no wonder number 6 always gives 5's.

[QansasjayhawQ]

Originally Posted by boogiesnap

i agree. there is no such thing as a stupid question.

but, does it take a master judge credentials like yours, to know how to judge.

no wonder number 6 always gives 5's.

I don't have my master's yet - just got the test this week - and it's loaded with tough questions! (no, really!)

I think it takes at least ten contests for a new judge to really get within about a 20% variance from the other judges. So, if the master judge scores a 9 then the 10 event experienced judge can score as low as 7 without being silly.

I see the major problems with judges not knowing how to judge are those judges who may be experienced, but not very active. I've met several judges who judge only their hometown's event - once a year - for the last umpteen years! Those judges tend to score far more harshly than experienced, active judges.

Then, there are the 'celebrity' judges. Mayors, radio personalities, etc. They tend to score absolutely each entry a '9' and even ask to get their previous scores changed because 'this one is so much better than the one I just gave the top score to!'.

These two types of judges are the biggest problems with judges, in my opinion. Judges who ask good questions like Trollin' did are the people we want judging, in my opinion.

[tigerpaw]

Originally Posted by boogiesnap

they didn't teach you that in class???

6 is average.

go up or down from there.

The answer to that is NO. I even went back and looked at my notes as well as handouts. No where does it say start at 6 and work your way from there. I even went back through the red KCBS Offical Judges Certification booklet. Notta.

Also at least two Master Judges at two different events would also say thats not the right way to do it while two others say start at 9 and work down.

Can a brother get a consensus here?

As I pointed out, after the class, the best info I got was from other judges. Taling before the comp, talking between presentations, talking after the judging. Some stay around for the awards so some time there to kick back and discuss. I have yet to run into any judge at hotels on Friday nights but hope maybe can sit back and shoot the pork over some drinks.

Except for the bickering over some petty things, I have found every judge I have spoken with to be friendly, helpful, courteous and kind. Or was that the boy scout meeting?

[QansasjayhawQ]

Originally Posted by tigerpaw

The answer to that is NO. I even went back and looked at my notes as well as handouts. No where does it say start at 6 and work your way from there. I even went back through the red KCBS Offical Judges Certification booklet. Notta.

Also at least two Master Judges at two different events would also say thats not the right way to do it while two others say start at 9 and work down.

Can a brother get a consensus here?

As I pointed out, after the class, the best info I got was from other judges. Taling before the comp, talking between presentations, talking after the judging. Some stay around for the awards so some time there to kick back and discuss. I have yet to run into any judge at hotels on Friday nights but hope maybe can sit back and shoot the pork over some drinks.

Except for the bickering over some petty things, I have found every judge I have spoken with to be friendly, helpful, courteous and kind. Or was that the boy scout meeting?

Yep - my experience is similar. Most judges are Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

Some almost too much! :-)

I believe the consensus is that there is no consensus. Don't start anywhere but with your own ideal of what excellence in BBQ means, take into account the hundreds of samples that have passed across your palate in the past, and remember that each sample you judge brings you closer to understanding what exactly excellence in bbq is.

In the mean time, discussing these things here on the brethren forums is the best we can do.

[Gadragonfly]

The following isn't mine and there are those here who will recognize where this originated. I was given an OK to share it and its something that makes sense to me and may help a new judge get their bearing...

A 6 is something you could get at a decent bbq restaurant
A 7 is something you would want your friends to try
An 8 is something you'd want to share with your spouse
A 9 - you ain't sharing with anybody - get away from my plate

[Rookie'48]

I think that David (QansasjayhawQ) pretty much nailed all of the answers for you. I will add that for my first few contests I told my Table Captain that I was a brand new CBJ and asked if he would keep an eye on my scores compared to the other judges. I didn't want to be giving 6s if everyone else thought it was a 8 or 9 ( or vise-versa). Each of the TCs said that I was "in the ballpark" on my scoring, so that was all to the good.
You'll learn more about judging while talking "quietly" between catagories with your fellow judges than a dozen classes can teach you: "That second rib - all the flavor was in the sauce - where was the meat & rub flavor?" ....."Number 5 would have been better if he would have left out the mushy slices - the pulled & the chunks were great - it sure cost him for that" ..... "Man, that #4 chicken was one of the best I've ever had!" You'll hear all of these and more.
Another point that I can't make often enough is that you are NOT judging as to what you like, you're judging if the cook did a good job on the style that he was cooking. Was that sickenly sweet, candy-coated thigh done with a good flavor profile? Did it have "layers of flavors"? Did the sauce (if any) compliment the meat & the rub? If the answer is "yes" then I will give that entry 8s or 9s even though I'm not a real big fan of sweets. If it's served up with a mega-dose of chili powder & no other flavors, then he's gonna tank even though I'm somewhat of a pepper-head, because there was no ballance to it.
As David said, it takes a few comps to figure out what you're doing. And being able to ask questions is, to me, a sign that you will most likely be a very good, contientious, honest judge.
And we need judges like that.

[Frankbbq]

Originally Posted by Gadragonfly

The following isn't mine and there are those here who will recognize where this originated. I was given an OK to share it and its something that makes sense to me and may help a new judge get their bearing...

A 6 is something you could get at a decent bbq restaurant
A 7 is something you would want your friends to try
An 8 is something you'd want to share with your spouse
A 9 - you ain't sharing with anybody - get away from my plate

Good Quote!
We used to start at 9 and worked down, then we started at 6 (average) and went from there.