The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS.  



Our Homepage Donation to Forum Overhead Recipes Smoke Signals Magazine Welocme Merchandise Associations Purchase Subscription Amazon Affiliate
Go Back   The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS. > Discussion Area > Competition BBQ

Notices

Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-25-2011, 07:19 PM   #1
BBQchef33
Grand Poobah and Site Admin
 
BBQchef33's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-11-03
Location: Long Island, NY
Default Taste? Texture? Taste? Texture?

Been doing some thinking about scoring systems.

Appearance / Taste / Texture.... Usually, Appearance is weighted the least and taste weighted the highest, which makes the taste of the food the dominant portion of our scores.

BUT what is the real challenge in cooking in competition?

We can all make something taste good. (just smear some blues hog on it ). We agonize over flavor profiles, balancing, smoke/wood influence, temps etc.. but in all actuality, a non offensive commercial rub will taste just plain old good. So, what is our real challenge??? And what hits the judges first in that first bite?

We establish our flavor profiles out of a jar or 10, prep the meat and into the pit it goes. Flavor is done.. ...But then we spend hours checking, probing, foiling, un-foiling, setting, dipping, dunking, shredding slicing and pulling, not drying it out, not undercooking it, not burning the skin, not making it too tough or too mushy. Whats the challenge.. taste?? or texture?

Soooo...what has more of an influence on the judges? When the judge bites that thigh, what do they notice first. Juicy, tender, dry or chewy? thats the FIRST impression, and then comes the flavors. Texture hits first, and can make your score RIGHT THEN AND THERE. Can perfection in texture mentally influence the judge and over shadow mediocre flavors. ?? if so, then why is the texture weight the lowest? Or is THAT WHY the texture weight is lower(to balance the scoring?)

Think about it, a great, well balance flavor profile will never hold up a tough brisket, mushy pork, undercooked chicken, or chewy rib. I dont think i ever heard a judge say it was tough, but tasted good so I gave it all 9's. Or you nailed the texture, and screwed up the flavors, and get penalized because the weight of the texture is less than the weight of the flavor scores. You cooked it perfectly, but the judged hated your profile.. why get nailed.. ??

What if..... the weights were reversed, giving texture more weight than flavor??? Just sayin...



discuss.
__________________
Site Administrator and
Grand PooBah

CBJ with a Fuzzy Blue Hat, 18 Foot Competition Trailer, Customized Klose BYC, Custom Built Shirley built to feed our Veterans(A.K.A "Abrams"), 1 Double Barreled Lang 84, 1 Heavily Modified Bionic Bandera, 1 Custom Super Medium Stickburning Spicewine w/stoker, 1 XL BGE, 1 Mini BGE, 2 Pit Barrel Cookers, 3 WSMs, 3 Weber Kettles, an NB Hondo, A Modified Brinkman Horizontal, DCS 48" Grill, a Broilmaster P3, a Blaqckstone 36 and 17, a covered, pellet pooping FEC100, and our duck died. :(

News Flash:
"A mans worth is judged by the weight of his integrity "

You know your getting older when you choose your cereal for the fiber, not the toy


Smoke on KC.
WWW.BBQ-BRETHREN.COM
BBQchef33 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 08:03 PM   #2
Bentley
Babbling Farker
 
Bentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-14-07
Location: Culpeper, Virginia
Default

To me taste is the most important part of a competition and I think should have the highest weight for score. Having said that, I think I can cook meat as well as any competition team competing, but when it come to flavor profiles, we sure seem to be hit and miss.

I do think some judges can't distinguish between taste and tenderness or at least they dont seem to seperate it when it comes to judging. I have judged plenty of meat I have given 9's in taste, and 6 or 7's in tenderness and the inverse is true, just like you pointed out.

I used to think as judges got more experience, their scores woud reflect it, but I have sat with a few Master CBJ's at contest and I have scored a piece of meat a 7 and they gave it a 5, that has made me scratch my head a few times...I like to think I know the difference between below average, average and above average BBQ. When you start talking about Very Good and Excellet I am sure more subjectivity comes into play, but when you start giving 5's and below, you need to be able to articulate why, and I find too many CBJ's, Masters or not that cannot.
__________________
Certified Master Judge #5382


What is best in life? "To crush your BBQ opponents, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
Bentley is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 08:10 PM   #3
Smokin' Gnome BBQ
is Blowin Smoke!
 
Smokin' Gnome BBQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-31-07
Location: Shippensburg PA
Default

I think it takes real skill to take a tuff piece of meat and make it tender.. taste is important, but I think cooking a piece of meat is the hard part..
Smokin' Gnome BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 08:11 PM   #4
The_Kapn
Moderator Emeritus

 
The_Kapn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-08-04
Location: Marianna, FL
Default

FBA weights tenderness and taste almost equally.
Now that I have learned how to cook the meat properly--I like that!

Basically (rounding off) 10% appearance, 45% each for tenderness and taste.
If I am off--RUB or someone will correct me.

Works for me.

TIM
__________________
"Flirtin' with Disaster" BBQ Team (RETIRED)
FBA and KCBS Cook and Judge.
Former owner of a WSM, a Smokey Joe, a Charbroil Commercial gasser (junk), the legendary "StudeDera", a FEC100, a Fast Eddy PG500, and Sherman the Wonder Trailer.
Now cooking with a Yoder YS640
Proud Pellet guy cooking on real wood.
The_Kapn is online now   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Old 05-25-2011, 08:12 PM   #5
bigabyte
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
bigabyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-10-06
Location: Overland Fark, KS
Default

Just my opinion (and I don't post here a lot so take it with a grain of salt)...

The entrance criteria towards winning is cooking the meat right, and from there it's a flavor/appearance contest. If it looks good and has the best sauce/rub, etc of the day, but is not cooked right, it's not going to win.
__________________
Asshattatron Farkanaut, CGCFO
Chief Galactic Crockpot Foil Officer
Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Are you MOINK Certified?
Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards!

Don't forget about the Throwdown Thingies!
The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club



Duh.
bigabyte is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 08:15 PM   #6
roksmith
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Join Date: 04-21-09
Location: Marietta, Ohio
Default

I too think taste is and should be more important. Texture is simply getting the time and temperature right. Flavor is a whole other animal. Our ribs, for example, go thru 5 individual steps.. Each adding another layer to the flavor of the ribs.
__________________
4000 sq inch Wood Burner named Brutus - KCSB member/judge# 32129
roksmith is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 08:23 PM   #7
Meat Burner
Quintessential Chatty Farker
 
Meat Burner's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-22-07
Location: Springfield, MO
Default

Big guy, I do think taste should be the most important score. JMHO.
__________________
my avatar swiped fatties from the plate....look how sorry he is.
________
Meat.

NB Bandera with mods
Weber 22 .5" x 2, 26.75" x 1
UDS x 3
KCBS CBJ
Created "The Great Spam Revelation of 2011."
www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111155
Meat Burner is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 08:28 PM   #8
bigabyte
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
bigabyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-10-06
Location: Overland Fark, KS
Default

Actually, I guess I'll add a couple more thoughts.

First, the meat needs to be cooked right to have a shot at winning (I just can't see tasty, well arranged, tough ribs winning).

After that you are left with appearance and taste. Of those two, I think appearance should be the lowest factor.

This doesn't mean I think texture should be weighted the most however. I do think that ultimately it is a FLAVOR contest, and would like it weighted that way.

Just to clarify what I was saying.

Because I can't put a complete thought down in one post to save my life for some reason.

I'm sure I'll be back later to add some more.
__________________
Asshattatron Farkanaut, CGCFO
Chief Galactic Crockpot Foil Officer
Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Are you MOINK Certified?
Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards!

Don't forget about the Throwdown Thingies!
The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club



Duh.
bigabyte is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 09:08 PM   #9
JD McGee
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
JD McGee's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-28-07
Location: Duvall, WA
Default

I strive for "properly cooked" (texture) meats first...then taste...then appearance. Nothing worse than a tough, mushy, or dry piece of meat...regardless of what seasonings or sauces are on it...my 2 cents!
__________________
Wine Country "Q" Competition BBQ Team
PNWBA "Team Of The Year" 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, & 2016...
Proudly sponsored by Kosmo's Q, MAK Grills, BBQr's Delight, Ravenswood Winery, and Draper Valley Farms!
MAK 1 Star General...
MAK 2 Star General...
MAK 3 Star General...the one to rule them all!
JD McGee is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 09:17 PM   #10
Pitmaster T
Babbling Farker
 
Pitmaster T's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-03-11
Location: Texas
Default

I will put my hat in this ring. There was once a poll somewhere that actually ranked some of these traits, albeit not for competition. But here is my respectful opinion. You are not going to win with poor scores in either so... you need to master both! Now that being said, I would say that texture is crucial - so crucial in fact I do not think it should be discussed as it is a given. In addition, the factor I just mentioned that I refuse to discuss any further has a crucial impact on taste... the reverse is not true. Think about that.

A guy whose name rhymes with "Mil bazzuto" aka - rhymes with "Barry" once called me to cuss me out. In the process he ended up telling me how he did a particular cut of meat. It got me to think one night. This guy takes this particular cut and slow cooks it at a really low temp, for a long time.... he has the equipment to do it too... anyway then he comes back and ramps the heat up real high... then slows it down. He says he does it for "depth." I tried it.... with equipment other than my stupidly inefficient Brazos, and I was VERY impressed... tenderness.... about as tender as my high heat method... but the reach to that tenderness ended up affecting the end taste.

So like politics, its circular. One can be so right they end up being radical... keep going and you end up in anarchy or tyranny both of which share the same space.

So my answer is.... sort of like what I said as another personality long ago. If you cannot get tenderness down you actually have no place competing anyway unless you like to hang with those of us that have the skills. But never forget the impact tenderness has (well if you can do it in a smoker - I am not talking about tender simmered meat :-) on flavor. So... the two are interconnected. Unlike appearance... which often is in most regions outside where I am, external to your taste. But that's another argument that has been done to death.
__________________
Edict.

Certified KCBS Judge

Sauna girl, oh Sauna Girl, where once there was a world, for one breathe shining moment who was known as................... Sauna Girl
Pitmaster T is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 09:22 PM   #11
Pitmaster T
Babbling Farker
 
Pitmaster T's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-03-11
Location: Texas
Default

BBQ Priorities POll #1 - What do we Learn to Cook For First?
Polling Priorities #2- What Traits do we Conquer First?
Polling Priorities #3 - What Traits do we conquer Second?
Polling Priorities #4 - What Challenges/Challenged you Most?

And the ever popular and fun - The Real Causes of Bad BBQ
__________________
Edict.

Certified KCBS Judge

Sauna girl, oh Sauna Girl, where once there was a world, for one breathe shining moment who was known as................... Sauna Girl
Pitmaster T is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 09:49 PM   #12
boogiesnap
Babbling Farker
 
Join Date: 04-22-10
Location: NEW ENGLAND
Default

i've always felt tenderness is the gateway to taste. without tender, taste ain't worth a darn.

if ya aint gona enjoy chewing it, you ain't gonna enjoy tasting it.

as far as scoring, it's harder to make comp BBQ tender than taste good, i'd say flip flop.

like scottie said, all you need is smokin guns hot, blues hog, and a toothpick.

now where does the skill and quality q come into play? rubbing with SGH, saucing with BH, or executing your skills on your pit to make that toothpick do it's thang!

tender is an absolute and better BBQ. it either is or isn't cooked properly.

flavor is subjective. should be weighted less.
__________________
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Blue"][I][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][/FONT]"YAWN"[/I][/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]-[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"]In memory of a friend.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

avatar by grillman. patent pending. :mad2::becky:
boogiesnap is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 10:05 PM   #13
boogiesnap
Babbling Farker
 
Join Date: 04-22-10
Location: NEW ENGLAND
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by roksmith View Post
I too think taste is and should be more important. Texture is simply getting the time and temperature right. Flavor is a whole other animal. Our ribs, for example, go thru 5 individual steps.. Each adding another layer to the flavor of the ribs.

simply? c'mon now.
__________________
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Blue"][I][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][/FONT]"YAWN"[/I][/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]-[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"]In memory of a friend.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

avatar by grillman. patent pending. :mad2::becky:
boogiesnap is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Old 05-25-2011, 10:12 PM   #14
Still Smokin
Full Fledged Farker
 
Join Date: 10-20-10
Location: Lowcountry SC
Default

Texture/tenderness means alot, I learned that the hard way this past week cooking on a new cooker, my ribs needed at least another 1/2 hour and instead of a top 5 finish, I got 14th. BTW, I nailed the taste part!!!!
Still Smokin is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 05-25-2011, 10:27 PM   #15
Slamdunkpro
Babbling Farker
 
Slamdunkpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-27-07
Location: Northern VA
Default

And now for something completely different......

I think that taste and tenderness are so intertwined that they should be one score

So, what to do with the other scoring criteria? How about Appearance (lowest weighted) Taste/Tenderness (highest weighted) & Creativity (middle weighted). Adding creativity as a scoring criteria would help reverse the homogeneous trend in entries and encourage cooks to stretch the envelope a bit.
__________________
Aporkalypse Now Competition BBQ team
Thanks to our sponsors: Wusthof Trident USA, Creekstone Farms, Myron Mixon Smokers & The BBQ Guru
MABA 2014 Team of the Year
Spicewine Tandem - "The Beast"
, 2 Vulcan V33's & 1 V9
Brinkman modified upright, Weber Kettle(s); Meadow Creek Pr-24, Super Stealth Mode black & Night Vision Red Thermopens
-----------------
MABA - (Mid Atlantic BBQ Association) President
KCBS Certified Judge - #23289
Slamdunkpro is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Regarding rib texture Badgeman Competition BBQ 7 07-05-2011 10:10 AM
Taste/Texture: Hard To Separate The Two??? Q-Dat Competition BBQ 13 04-04-2011 05:49 PM
Improving pastrami texture? Happy Highwayman Q-talk 22 11-15-2010 09:28 PM
Taste / Texture Test project jakealberts Q-talk 7 09-22-2010 12:41 PM
Tips for Chicken Skin texture? GldnKniteofBBQ Q-talk 9 02-23-2010 02:12 PM

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Forum Custom Search: Enter your Search text below. GOOGLE will search ONLY the BBQ Brethren Forum.





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
2003 -2012 © BBQ-Brethren Inc. All rights reserved. All Content and Flaming Pig Logo are registered and protected under U.S and International Copyright and Trademarks. Content Within this Website Is Property of BBQ Brethren Inc. Reproduction or alteration is strictly prohibited.
no new posts