CVAP vs Alto-Shaam - please clarify my understanding

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longwayfromhome

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Auckland...
Hi there

I am trying to get a handle on hot-holding technologies. Have I got the following right?
1. Winston-CVAP uses temperature, moisture and a fan.
2. Alto-Shaam uses temperature only and no fan (Halo technology they call it).

On this site and others, on numerous occasions, I have seen experienced BBQ restaurant pitmasters recommend for hot-holding "...either a Shaam or a CVAP ...". Does this mean that despite having quite different approaches, in practice either method works fine and produce very similar results?

For someone about to buy (new or used), what would you recommend? Are there other technology options (apart from Cambro-style or simple coolers)?

TIA.
 
Comments from Alto-Shaam

Hi there, longwayfromhome!

Before I get into the details -- I want to share that I am an Alto-Shaam employee at the USA headquarters.

I can't share about CVAP results, but we are seeing a lot of people using our Alto-Shaam holding cabinets to keep their product warm throughout the day. You are correct in saying that we do not have fans or added moisture. Because we do not use harsh heating elements, food maintains its natural moisture and is naturally tenderized during the holding process.

I actually traveled to a restaurant in Mississippi -- the Shed BBQ and Blue's Joint -- where they smoked their meats in a pit smoker and then finished using our Halo Heat equipment. It's been a year since I have been there, but I still think about how amazing that brisket was!

If you have questions or if you would like to see the Halo Heat® holding cabinets in person, please reach out to our sales partners in New Zealand -- Southern Hospitality!

Southern Hospitality Ltd
79 St Georges Bay Rd
Tony Bakewell
Phone: 09-375-3054
Fax: 09-375-3056
tbakewell@southernhospitality.co.nz

I hope that helps! We have plenty information to share if you are interested in more details.
 
JimmyDAL said:
Rethermilizer
Click to expand...

Thanks JD. What I know of rethermalising, it is basically a fancy hot-water bath largely focussed on reheating chilled or frozen product. I get it that it does that really well, but the situation I am talking about is taking fully cooked meat off the smoker at 180-200+F and holding at above 140 until served maybe 1-15 hours later - most BBQ restaurants do this (even places like Franklin BBQ).

I know some BBQ restaurants do a chill and rethermalising process, the most well known being the Salt Lick in Round Rock, TX, but it isn't what I had in mind. I am not saying that that isn't a great way to go, but having to have a decent (probably commercial grade) vacuum packer/sealer kinda adds to the cost and space requirements as well.

Now, I know I may not be able to escape having left over product at the end of the day in which case I may have to go down this path, but hopefully that won't be a major issue. Anyway, your message got me looking at these units and the process once again and it is certainly interesting.
 
SarahMillardAltoShaam said:
Hi there, longwayfromhome!

Before I get into the details -- I want to share that I am an Alto-Shaam employee at the USA headquarters.

I can't share about CVAP results, but we are seeing a lot of people using our Alto-Shaam holding cabinets to keep their product warm throughout the day. You are correct in saying that we do not have fans or added moisture. Because we do not use harsh heating elements, food maintains its natural moisture and is naturally tenderized during the holding process.

I actually traveled to a restaurant in Mississippi -- the Shed BBQ and Blue's Joint -- where they smoked their meats in a pit smoker and then finished using our Halo Heat equipment. It's been a year since I have been there, but I still think about how amazing that brisket was!

If you have questions or if you would like to see the Halo Heat® holding cabinets in person, please reach out to our sales partners in New Zealand -- Southern Hospitality!

Southern Hospitality Ltd
79 St Georges Bay Rd
Tony Bakewell
Phone: 09-375-3054
Fax: 09-375-3056
tbakewell@southernhospitality.co.nz

I hope that helps! We have plenty information to share if you are interested in more details.
Click to expand...

Thanks Sarah. I am about 5 miles from Southern Hospitality and will be visiting them soon.

I guess the basic "argument" that A-S has in favour of Halo Heat is that the lack of a moving air stream that occurs in other processes means the product doesn't dry out, or get different moisture characteristics after time spent in the unit. I do appreciate the surround heat quality that is also part of Halo Heat. It seems to me that the A-S would probably have better chance of correctly holding batches of mixed product e.g. Fried chicken and brisket, than would a water vapour product (CVAP) which would tend to make all product in the unit a uniform quality based on the dial settings.

Just trying to educate myself and then get feedback from real users of these units in the field.

TVM Sarah

PS: I just talked with Tony and he was very helpful. Will be going to a demo at a food show in a few weeks.
 
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Long from home, I found that cooking, quick chill, freeze and then retherm creates the ability to control costs better. Ironically enough, I live in Conn and Yale just built a whole facility based on this process and what I have heard most high end restaurants have been doing this for quite some time as well. I'm hoping to incorporate this ourselves so that the process is more efficient, cost effective, and the quality doesn't suffer. Hell, if Yale changed their whole operations to go in this direction seems logical to me.
 
JimmyDAL said:
Long from home, I found that cooking, quick chill, freeze and then retherm creates the ability to control costs better. Ironically enough, I live in Conn and Yale just built a whole facility based on this process and what I have heard most high end restaurants have been doing this for quite some time as well. I'm hoping to incorporate this ourselves so that the process is more efficient, cost effective, and the quality doesn't suffer. Hell, if Yale changed their whole operations to go in this direction seems logical to me.
Click to expand...

Really! Looks like I will have to investigate. From what I see it would work in a practical sense if you could pull out of the freezer and have ready in minutes, but the rethermalisers I am reading about take 90 minutes to get to the right temp. Seems to me that we are back to where we started from - trying to guess ahead of time what the demand is, albeit with a reduced window, so less room for error. I can see how a food service cafeteria could be run this way, general BBQ though would still have (admittedly reduced) challenges.

The cost savings they are after would largely relate to product left over at the end of the day - is that why they are doing it? I suppose efficiencies through larger batch sizes etc also come into it.

Thoughts?

TIA
 
JimmyDAL said:
Long from home, I found that cooking, quick chill, freeze and then retherm creates the ability to control costs better. Ironically enough, I live in Conn and Yale just built a whole facility based on this process and what I have heard most high end restaurants have been doing this for quite some time as well. I'm hoping to incorporate this ourselves so that the process is more efficient, cost effective, and the quality doesn't suffer. Hell, if Yale changed their whole operations to go in this direction seems logical to me.
Click to expand...

Jimmy

What equipment are you thinking of getting to go the rethermalising route? I'd be interested in make/model if you have thought that far.

TIA.
 
We do have a whole line of combi ovens that rethermalize extremely fast. The key to that is having a blast chiller to reduce temperature quickly so that you lock in flavor and reduce bacteria growth risks.

There is no one answer for foodservice operators as far as rethermalizing goes. It is extremely efficient in large-batch cooking for catering and banqueting productions. But that may not be what you need. Hopefully Tony can help you with some kitchen recommendations based on your operations.

If you need any more information from Alto-Shaam, please let me know! You can reach me at sarahm@alto-shaam.com.

Good luck!
 
Back to your original post, both pieces of equipment are proven to aid in hot holding BBQ for long periods of time. There are folks who prefer one over, the other, most likely due to familiarity with one technology over the other.

In terms of retherming, there is no doubt that it will work, I've had BBQ done that way and it was actually pretty good. That is more of a call, as to whether you want to serve hot and fresh, cooked daily, or serve volume, with better control over processes and timing.
 
We contacted Panera Bread who was closing 2 of their operations and opening new ones just down the road from each other, my daughter 17 yrs old called them to ask about what was happening with the equipment, needless to say, they have to have Everything out within 24 hrs. We made 3 trips with a 24' u-haul all for free, including 2 rethermilzers. You can take it out frozen and within 10-15 minutes be up to temp. We cook volume in advance, pull, slice, cube etc and package usually in 1 lb foodsaver bags, date, weigh, freeze. Our place is tiny, still trying to work out the kinks but this by far seems the most efficient ( burnt ends, sliced Brisket like you wouldn't believe) think about making a large batch of anything and have it at your disposal by dropping it in a water bath. To just doable with it, I would suggest starting with Anova Sous Vide, same principle. I don't know how to post pic's here otherwise I would post the rethermilzers on here. Let me know
 
JimmyDAL said:
Long from home, I found that cooking, quick chill, freeze and then retherm creates the ability to control costs better. Ironically enough, I live in Conn and Yale just built a whole facility based on this process and what I have heard most high end restaurants have been doing this for quite some time as well. I'm hoping to incorporate this ourselves so that the process is more efficient, cost effective, and the quality doesn't suffer. Hell, if Yale changed their whole operations to go in this direction seems logical to me.
Click to expand...

SarahMillardAltoShaam said:
We do have a whole line of combi ovens that rethermalize extremely fast. The key to that is having a blast chiller to reduce temperature quickly so that you lock in flavor and reduce bacteria growth risks.

There is no one answer for foodservice operators as far as rethermalizing goes. It is extremely efficient in large-batch cooking for catering and banqueting productions. But that may not be what you need. Hopefully Tony can help you with some kitchen recommendations based on your operations.

If you need any more information from Alto-Shaam, please let me know! You can reach me at sarahm@alto-shaam.com.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thanks Sarah, I will explore with Tony as you suggest.
 
landarc said:
Back to your original post, both pieces of equipment are proven to aid in hot holding BBQ for long periods of time. There are folks who prefer one over, the other, most likely due to familiarity with one technology over the other.

In terms of retherming, there is no doubt that it will work, I've had BBQ done that way and it was actually pretty good. That is more of a call, as to whether you want to serve hot and fresh, cooked daily, or serve volume, with better control over processes and timing.
Click to expand...

Thanks Landarc - I am after daily fresh really, just wanting to understand all my options. The ideal is to trade until sold out every day! But there are no real B&M joints down this way that operate that way, so I am breaking new ground in that area as well as several others. As far as A-S v CVap is concerned, it would be great to find a commercial operator who has used both (or uses both) and can bring out the relative advantages of each. I can find references/testimonials for both, it is the comparative that is missing. Thanks for your input Landarc.
 
I see that you are in New Zealand, are there any restaurants currently that work on the idea that there is a likelihood of selling out every day? Even here in the States, were it is common for BBQ places to operate like that, it is increasingly unpopular to not be able to get BBQ when you want it.

The guy who taught me to cook briskets did his hot hold in a JR smoker oven, with the meat all piled on one or two shelves and the cooker around 145°F. It worked great for him. But, he would open at 11am, and roll until sold out. Usually around 5pm
 
landarc said:
I see that you are in New Zealand, are there any restaurants currently that work on the idea that there is a likelihood of selling out every day? Even here in the States, were it is common for BBQ places to operate like that, it is increasingly unpopular to not be able to get BBQ when you want it.

The guy who taught me to cook briskets did his hot hold in a JR smoker oven, with the meat all piled on one or two shelves and the cooker around 145°F. It worked great for him. But, he would open at 11am, and roll until sold out. Usually around 5pm
Click to expand...

I was just in the US, and at Mission BBQ in Annapolis, MD, I asked for spares and they were out, only BB available. They gave me a coupon for a free meat on my next visit. I see the BBQ world is changing in the US!

Down this way, sold-out is acceptable in a food truck, but unknown in a B&M establishment. Heck, it is hard enough getting people to queue for food, if the line is longer than a couple of people, then it is often too long. BBQ does provide some differentiation on this front and we have now started to see BBQ with queues. I will not be pushing 'until sold out' - in the US its mostly a sign of quality and freshness, in NZ it would mostly be seen as making the establishment unreliable and therefore probably not worth visiting. I am therefore expecting to have challenges in the area of storing product overnight and using the next day.

I'll be using FEC's, so holding in one of those is a possibility, especially for the brisket and butts. Trouble is, pellets aren't cheap as they are all imported.

New ground in many directions :loco:
 
Hi Ralph, good to hear you are getting closer. As I told you when you visited, other than the smoker the cvap is the most important piece of equipment in my kitchen. I can't compare to an AS as I have never used one, but with my methods brisket can hold 10-12 hours no problem. I have noticed that there are better areas in the cvap than others, for instance I avoid the top shelf as it is close to the fan. Adding water is not too much of a hassle, it doesn't use a lot. Hope this helps, good luck!
 
ShencoSmoke said:
Hi Ralph, good to hear you are getting closer. As I told you when you visited, other than the smoker the cvap is the most important piece of equipment in my kitchen. I can't compare to an AS as I have never used one, but with my methods brisket can hold 10-12 hours no problem. I have noticed that there are better areas in the cvap than others, for instance I avoid the top shelf as it is close to the fan. Adding water is not too much of a hassle, it doesn't use a lot. Hope this helps, good luck!
Click to expand...

Thanks Craig, good info as usual. Can you serve from the CVAP, or does the constant opening overpower the recovery capability?
 
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