D
Dale P
Guest
I just wish that the parting rule would be tossed out. We play by the rules but I say it is a silly rule.
Pork collar snake river
- Thread starter boogiesnap
- Start date
Capn Kev
is one Smokin' Farker
One idea to solve things...keep meat in original packaging until the meat (and cut) has been inspected by a meat inspector. The meat inspector should also have some background in "meat". I guess there's no way to completely avoid someone from swapping out meat, but it might help.
Jeff Hughes
is one Smokin' Farker
Probably not. Anyone could have a back up cooler.
I want to trim my meat at home. Many do.
drbbq
is Blowin Smoke!
But if the seller specifies it as a collar then it's not a butt or a picnic and besides it's not five pounds. Anybody who uses it is cheating. This kind of creative interpretation is a real problem.
F
Finney
Guest
I'm not even talking about the under 5 lbs thing... that can't be argued... it's either 5lbs (+) or it isn't.
But to say that a label has to say "boston butt" ("picnic", or "whole shoulder") specifically is a bunch of whoey. I've bought butts and picnics that just said "pork shoulder" on the labels, others (butts) have said "Boston blade roast" (this one says boston, but not butt) or "pork shoulder - butt" (this one says butt, but not boston).
I've also bought whole shoulders that also said "pork shoulder". Did it need to specify 'whole'? Lots of meat cut names change by region. You should go into the country with some 'good ole boys' and help slaughter hogs and hear what they are calling different cuts.
As I said in the post above, I have know idea what SRF is selling. I've never bought one from them. So I'm not saying what they are selling is legal.
All I'm saying is from the description of what a "collar butt" (above), that it would appear that it should be legal (if over 5 lbs) because it is just a trimmed up upper shoulder just like a "boston butt". It is part of the shoulder, not meat that is from near the shoulder.
juicybuttsbbq
Full Fledged Farker
People Cheat????? Well Son Of A $%^&*@,, What is this Sport Coming Too
roksmith
is one Smokin' Farker
I do not plan on using them, BUT.
I would argue that the only thing that makes them illegal would be that they are under 5 lbs. You get a hold of a "pork collar" according to the description above and it's over 5 lbs it is perfectly legal. Aside from it being the very definition of a bone out boston butt, if it is any part of a whole shoulder that weighs at least 5 pounds, it's legal.
We cannot "part", but we certainly can trim...as much as we want as long as we stay above 5 lbs.
Doesn't matter who does the trimming.. you or the butcher.. if it was a legal piece of meat to start with and you did nothing illegal to it.. it's still legal.
It is neither outside the letter or spirit of the rule.
What is stamped on a package does not make a piece of meat illegal if the cut inside it is legal.
As above.. I don't know exactly what SRF is selling, but if it conforms to the above description, it's only illegal because of weight.
I would argue that the only thing that makes them illegal would be that they are under 5 lbs. You get a hold of a "pork collar" according to the description above and it's over 5 lbs it is perfectly legal. Aside from it being the very definition of a bone out boston butt, if it is any part of a whole shoulder that weighs at least 5 pounds, it's legal.
We cannot "part", but we certainly can trim...as much as we want as long as we stay above 5 lbs.
Doesn't matter who does the trimming.. you or the butcher.. if it was a legal piece of meat to start with and you did nothing illegal to it.. it's still legal.
It is neither outside the letter or spirit of the rule.
What is stamped on a package does not make a piece of meat illegal if the cut inside it is legal.
As above.. I don't know exactly what SRF is selling, but if it conforms to the above description, it's only illegal because of weight.
Butcher BBQ
is one Smokin' Farker
You would be better off doing training yourself like our government will do when they train the secret service when looking for counterfeit paper money. Study the real thing and get to know it and ask questions to the owner and you (as a rep) have the right to be explained all the "why's" a piece of meat is cut the way it is to quarntee it is a butt, picnic, or whole shoulder.
drbbq
is Blowin Smoke!
I guess we just need some more rules to clear this up either way because I see it clearly but a good amount of others don't see it the same way so it must be confusing as written.
The rules clearly specify the legal cuts. At no point does it say "or parts thereof" or anything like that. You can cook Boston Butt, Whole Shoulder, or Picnic.
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Brewmaster
is Blowin Smoke!
Has anyone cooked this cut of meat?
If I set aside the fact that anyone using this cut of meat is cheating, is this really a better cut of meat? Do I have a legitimate concern that someone competing against me has an advantage?
Cheers,
Nate
If I set aside the fact that anyone using this cut of meat is cheating, is this really a better cut of meat? Do I have a legitimate concern that someone competing against me has an advantage?
Cheers,
Nate
dmprantz
is Blowin Smoke!
I'm not trying to be snarky, but when I buy my competition meats from Schnuck's or Sam's, they are labeled by IBP as "Pork Butts." Since they are not labled as a Boston Butt, Picnic, or whole shoulder, can I compete with those? If not, does it become legal again if the butcher ignores the box and calls them Boston Butts in a celophane pack? A different butcher of mine in St. Louis would label the picnics as callie roasts. Does that instantly disqualify the cut of meat from KCBS competition? My father-in-law buys his competition pork roasts (Swift I think) that are called Shoulder Blade Roasts I think. Are those not legal? Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk or even talk about the SRF product, but is legality defined by the name applied to the meat or the meat itself? FWIW, MBN/MIM define the legal shoulder piece by the muscles and bones included, not by the packing name, though they do specifically exclude butts and picnics while including hams.
Far be it from me to think we should change the rules in any way, shape, or form because people would accuse me of trying to complicate things, but when I pointed out last year that the FEC100 is clearly in violation of the letter of the KCBS rules by having an electric heating element which can turn on during cooking, people here mentioned an undocumented "decision" by the board and referred to the sanity of reps. If you publically state your belief that the KCBS rules are bendable and pliable by the "good common sense" of reps in one area, it makes you look like a total hypocrite in my eyes to say that another part of the rules must be quoted and followed to the letter. This is not meant for Jorge, or any one else on in particular, just point it out....
dmp
Far be it from me to think we should change the rules in any way, shape, or form because people would accuse me of trying to complicate things, but when I pointed out last year that the FEC100 is clearly in violation of the letter of the KCBS rules by having an electric heating element which can turn on during cooking, people here mentioned an undocumented "decision" by the board and referred to the sanity of reps. If you publically state your belief that the KCBS rules are bendable and pliable by the "good common sense" of reps in one area, it makes you look like a total hypocrite in my eyes to say that another part of the rules must be quoted and followed to the letter. This is not meant for Jorge, or any one else on in particular, just point it out....
dmp
Alexa RnQ
is One Chatty Farker
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Apparently, rules only keep honest people honest.
And as a very smart cop in California told me, "You don't figure out how to be sneaky and then only do it the once."
And as a very smart cop in California told me, "You don't figure out how to be sneaky and then only do it the once."
If you are getting the same cut of meat, that is clearly allowed under the existing rules I see no issue. You would be competing under the rules that exist. My understanding is that the collar meat IS a different cut. That makes it illegal whether it weighs 5 lbs. before cooking or not.
In the case of the FEC 100 the language in rule 6 allows for all of the different elements that make the FEC work. The discussion about the hot rod determined that the heat given off was insufficient to cook and as a result did not violate the rules as they are written.
The rules, in my opinion, are pretty clear about what's allowed. I'm more concerned about those that will choose to use a surgeon's precision to disect them.
The rules state what is permitted in terms of legal cuts of pork. If we want to expand the rule to what isn't permitted then I need to get a new appliance dolly to cart the thing around. In my opinion the issue isn't about inadequate rules or verbage; but about people looking for away around the rules to do something that isn't legal. I'm sure there are some people that may have cooked a collar not knowing that they were breaking the rules.....and I'm certain that there were others that knew exactly what they were doing and CHOSE to do it anyway. On a personal level, I'm looking forward to seeing somebody get caught, and having to explain away their sudden departure from competition BBQ.
boogiesnap
Babbling Farker
dmp, you make a good point.
in another thread regarding gas and electric being allowed i sited machines such as the FEC's which clearly shouldn't be, but are, and thus, gas and electric should be allowed as well.
i have nothing wrong with them personally, just saying.
me, i';ll just stick to 6-8# bone in boston butt. not parted.
in another thread regarding gas and electric being allowed i sited machines such as the FEC's which clearly shouldn't be, but are, and thus, gas and electric should be allowed as well.
i have nothing wrong with them personally, just saying.
me, i';ll just stick to 6-8# bone in boston butt. not parted.
boogiesnap
Babbling Farker
jorge, i wasn't aware of that portion of the FEC debate.
that makes it pretty clear as to WHY they are allowed.
that is dissecting the rules a bit tho, no?
that makes it pretty clear as to WHY they are allowed.
that is dissecting the rules a bit tho, no?
Juggy D Beerman
Full Fledged Farker
I thought I knew my piggy parts, but this looks like a boneless butt to me.
Now can someone tell me if the what is referred to as cushion meat is also known as collar meat?
Porters,
Juggy
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dmprantz
is Blowin Smoke!
Fair enough, and I agree that if a cut of meat is not permitted, then it is not permitted, period, but if some one calls something that would otherwise be allowed a "collar," that name alone does not invalidate the entry simply because it was not labled as a "Boston Butt, Picnic, or Whole Shoulder."
As for rule 6 and the FEC100, this could be argued until we are all blue in the face, but the rule says "Propane or electric is permitted as fire starters, provided that the competition meat is not in/on the cooking device." There is no minimum level of heat required, just like there is no maximum level of loin defined in the schoulder section. In at least some models of FEC100 and Traeger grills, an electric fire starter will turn on if the fire goes out. If they get a pass because of the low BTU output of those starters, that's fine, and I'm not arguing the intent nor the spirit of the rule, but I can't see how a reasonable person could deny that it is an exception if not violation to the letter of the rule. Goose, gander, and all that!
dmp
As for rule 6 and the FEC100, this could be argued until we are all blue in the face, but the rule says "Propane or electric is permitted as fire starters, provided that the competition meat is not in/on the cooking device." There is no minimum level of heat required, just like there is no maximum level of loin defined in the schoulder section. In at least some models of FEC100 and Traeger grills, an electric fire starter will turn on if the fire goes out. If they get a pass because of the low BTU output of those starters, that's fine, and I'm not arguing the intent nor the spirit of the rule, but I can't see how a reasonable person could deny that it is an exception if not violation to the letter of the rule. Goose, gander, and all that!
dmp
Scottie
Quintessential Chatty Farker
Having cooked on FE's my entire career. I will tell you this. If you have to restart your pit, you take your meat out and light the fire. I prefer using a MAPP torch because it lights the fire faster. I also let my neighbors know what I am doing so there is never a question of what I was doing. This whole issue has been brought before the BOD on numerous times and each time they rule the exact same way. I believe the last time these issues were brought up was during the time of having the BOD of disect every rule that competitiors would bring up. Instead of reading around a rule, they should follow the rule. Plain and simple.
If you do not like a rule, bring it to the Rules Committee and they will present it. I can tell you that you are beating a dead horse on the FEC issue.
dmprantz
is Blowin Smoke!
That's a good plan on using the MAPP torch and informing your neighbors Scottie. Really above board! I know it's a dead horse, and I am not now, nor have I ever really tried to get FECs deemed illegal. My whole point in bringing it up is that people were quoting the rules to declare that something which is labled "collar" illegal because it is not labled one of the three cuts listed in the rules. Quoting the rules alone does not end the discussion, because there can always be exceptions which do not follow them, as pointed out here.
dmp
dmp
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