KCBS Involvement

midwest_kc said:

I know there have been times when I had to work on Friday, and showed up late. Check in was done, my teammates know my KCBS number (though they have even called to ask before), and no one ever has come by to make sure I showed. Seems like this rule isn't enforced super thoroughly (or maybe it's because they know we're nobodies and aren't going to factor in to any points chase)

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It's not enforced. I know a team last year that cooked a contest under the head cook and it was known from the start he'd never be there.

Right on Q said:

These area all good points but doesn't address the top reason for less teams. Expenses. Comp BBQ is an expensive hobby. We haven't done many contests the last couple of years due to this. I love competing but it's difficult to drop $1000 a weekend 20 times a year. Not sure how KCBS could fix this, or if they should, but it's why so many folks are dropping out after the "BBQ Pitmasters" bump

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Competition BBQ has never been cheap. People always bring up the cost. There was never a time competition BBQ was cheap. You know this going into it. Or should at least.

midwest_kc said:

I agree that expense is a deterrent to a lot of people. I just don't know how, realistically, to change it at this point. I love the guinea pig concept, but there are a lot of legit issues with making it "the way" and a lot of teams that want to bring their own meat in.

Maybe a set up where people can pick up their meat at a comp at a great price from a sponsor? Even then, that would probably lead to lower prize pools as you're taking someone who may have given cash as a sponsor and having them give discounts on products instead.

I don't know the answer, but judging is important, but cost is a major issue that keeps teams from doing any, or the guys doing 1-2 from doing 6-8.

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I know this....... they day I can't bring my own meat that I selected and trimmed......... I'm done. Meat provided contests don't level playing fields, it just shuffles the decks. Ask anyone who has ever cooked these events and you'll hear that the quality of meat between coolers is not equal. Some have gotten some real junk.



Some teams can win brisket with primes and commodity pork and chicken wins every weekend. People aren't getting outspent, they are getting out worked.

tduffy said:

. People aren't getting outspent, they are getting out worked.

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^^^^^This^^^^^

There may be a few teams that are leaving due to expense that got in from the Pitmasters "bump", however, if those teams were winning, they wouldn't leave. Everyone has an equal chance to win, but that opportunity starts before the contest starts.

I am not sure if this should be its own thread or if this is the proper place for the discussion.

I think the worst thing that could happen is to think there is a one-way fits all solution. Meat provided contests, excluding brisket, paying deeper into the finishing order (top 10 in categories and overall) and any other "solutions" all have their place but the best way forward is to let the promoters do whatever they can to differentiate their events.

The biggest issue with loosing events is that there is not a very good way for the promoters to generate a return on their investment. The competitive teams don't want to do samples (I am in this category so I am not throwing stones here, although some don't consider me competitive) and the health departments make it hard to have a mix of comp and vending.

My guess is we are loosing teams at the same rate but we are not adding in new teams as fast as we used to. BBQ Pitmasters was great advertising for competitive BBQ and not having BBQ on TV has caused the interest has die down.

tduffy said:

I know this....... they day I can't bring my own meat that I selected and trimmed......... I'm done. Meat provided contests don't level playing fields, it just shuffles the decks. Ask anyone who has ever cooked these events and you'll hear that the quality of meat between coolers is not equal. Some have gotten some real junk.



Some teams can win brisket with primes and commodity pork and chicken wins every weekend. People aren't getting outspent, they are getting out worked.

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In general I feel the same way. Guinea pig is cool as another type of event, but not something I'd want to do all the time.

My point about cost is not people getting outspent. It's about people not being able to show up, or not be able to show up very often.

The issue isn't with guys doing, say 8-10+ comps per year. Most of us doing more than that are bought in, and are going to do what's required to go compete every weekend we can. For me, right now, it's about time more than money. I can make 12-13 weekends a year work, and with some doubles hopefully do 15.

The issue is the guys that come out and do their local comp, which on the cheap side is still $500-600, and how do we get them to go 2 towns over and do one the next weekend, or next month? How do we then get them to do 4-5 the next year and so on? The money adds up quick, and when you're at that level, it becomes an obstacle. Some will make the commitment and do it. Some won't. Right now, it seems like more won't than will.

That said, I think that an option outside of making it cheaper, is to make it seem like a better value. Bigger prize pools could help. If you get one call, if that call is worth $100 vs $25 is psychologically a bigger bump. Other things that could be provided (Friday night dinner, etc) all bring value without costing a whole lot.

Like all things in life, the decision to compete more is going to be a value proposition. If you're trying to decide whether to get in to this, any additional value that can be created will increase the chances that more teams stick with it.

midwest_kc said:

That said, I think that an option outside of making it cheaper, is to make it seem like a better value. Bigger prize pools could help. If you get one call, if that call is worth $100 vs $25 is psychologically a bigger bump. Other things that could be provided (Friday night dinner, etc) all bring value without costing a whole lot.

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I'm all for bigger payouts, but how do you get there? Most comps are there to raise money for some cause, which means having organizers pulling money from those causes to increase payouts. Either there needs to be more sponsors, which is on the organizer to pull in, or it is bigger entry fees from the competitors.

I've never tried organizing an event, but does KCBS have any program a new organizer can follow to host a successful event? I mean, Corey Linton hosts a great contest every year and gets over 100 teams from all over to show up and he has a big payout. If there isn't already a new organizer program that KCBS can offer out, maybe a few of these great organizers might be willing to put together their "check-list" for putting on a great contest. The KCBS Board can start by reaching out to those organizers around the country that have very successful events to try and get a few of them to offer that up.

manmeatbbq said:

I'm all for bigger payouts, but how do you get there? Most comps are there to raise money for some cause, which means having organizers pulling money from those causes to increase payouts. Either there needs to be more sponsors, which is on the organizer to pull in, or it is bigger entry fees from the competitors.

I've never tried organizing an event, but does KCBS have any program a new organizer can follow to host a successful event? I mean, Corey Linton hosts a great contest every year and gets over 100 teams from all over to show up and he has a big payout. If there isn't already a new organizer program that KCBS can offer out, maybe a few of these great organizers might be willing to put together their "check-list" for putting on a great contest. The KCBS Board can start by reaching out to those organizers around the country that have very successful events to try and get a few of them to offer that up.

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That's a great idea.

Local sponsors are certainly on the organizers, but why can't KCBS work with sponsors to offer opportunities for individual comps too? I'm thinking something like the Smithfield grant program/SRF Challenge. There is an opportunity to apply for a sponsorship from a large corporation that is invested in BBQ and someone that John Doe from a small town wouldn't know how to approach.

Heck KCBS could pretty easily have a single application that organizers could use and apply for all of those types of opportunities at once. Then, the apps go to the companies to decide who they want to sponsor each year. Then, you still go to the local companies and find local sponsors that are invested in your community.

Agree with the above. Increasing prize pools will help teams see value in competing. If KCBS had a blueprint for organizers to get sponsors, get visitors, generate revenue then prize pools would be larger, leading to more teams participating.

I know a heavy consideration for a lot of teams is the prize pool and how deep they pay

Right on Q said:

Agree with the above. Increasing prize pools will help teams see value in competing. If KCBS had a blueprint for organizers to get sponsors, get visitors, generate revenue then prize pools would be larger, leading to more teams participating.

I know a heavy consideration for a lot of teams is the prize pool and how deep they pay

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Value is the key word. People aren't stupid and most people can add. When teams see contests charging $300+ to enter along with charging admission to the public, renting space to vendors along with major advertising for sponsors; then factor in that you have 40 teams ($12,000 in entry fees) yet the competition prize pool is $4,000 they start to ask questions. When those question aren't answered teams vote with their feet.

There is a contest here in the East that is struggling for teams yet they have been adversarial with the teams for the last few years. As a team, I go to events to have fun. I don't want to fight with organizers or KCBS reps over my site or arbitrary made up rules.

Slamdunkpro said:

Value is the key word. People aren't stupid and most people can add. When teams see contests charging $300+ to enter along with charging admission to the public, renting space to vendors along with major advertising for sponsors; then factor in that you have 40 teams ($12,000 in entry fees) yet the competition prize pool is $4,000 they start to ask questions. When those question aren't answered teams vote with their feet.

There is a contest here in the East that is struggling for teams yet they have been adversarial with the teams for the last few years. As a team, I go to events to have fun. I don't want to fight with organizers or KCBS reps over my site or arbitrary made up rules.

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This is also an issue. There is a contest this weekend with a pretty decent size team list. The organizer chose to arrange people based on when they registered, instead of giving the teams that have been loyal to the contest the opportunity to have their spot from the previous year back. Word tends to move pretty fast in the bbq cook community of which contests the organizers take care of the teams and which ones don't. As things like this continue to happen, many teams may just decide to pass on that contest going forward.
You would think some organizers would learn how to keep teams coming back, especially ones that aren't new to organizing contests.

midwest_kc said:

I know there have been times when I had to work on Friday, and showed up late. Check in was done, my teammates know my KCBS number (though they have even called to ask before), and no one ever has come by to make sure I showed. Seems like this rule isn't enforced super thoroughly (or maybe it's because they know we're nobodies and aren't going to factor in to any points chase)

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Get in the chase and people will notice. One year I showed up after 10 to most events. The number of complaints to KCBS and the reps was staggering. Start winning on the regular and people will bitch about every little thing you do.

Slamdunkpro said:

There is a contest here in the East that is struggling for teams yet they have been adversarial with the teams for the last few years. As a team, I go to events to have fun. I don't want to fight with organizers or KCBS reps over my site or arbitrary made up rules.

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This.
We are dealing with one in our state right now that is pulling this crap and acting like since they have 40+ teams every year that they can be that way. Keep it up and you'll be begging for people to show up.

Are we operating under the assumption that contraction is a bad thing?

It’s professional BBQ. We don’t need 500 pro events or 8000 pro teams. It’s not supposed to be easy or for everyone.

Why not focus membership growth on backyard events and non-competitive cooks and let your front line pros serve as marketing ambassadors for the sport?

I think we just need to restructure and rethink how we’re organized and a growth boom will follow.

manmeatbbq said:

... Word tends to move pretty fast in the bbq cook community of which contests the organizers take care of the teams and which ones don't. As things like this continue to happen, many teams may just decide to pass on that contest going forward. You would think some organizers would learn how to keep teams coming back, especially ones that aren't new to organizing contests.

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Yes, organizers are important to cooking teams, but also to judges, the general public and of course sponsors. Everyone has to realize value.

One Wyoming comp is going on 14 years and fills up fast with cooking teams and judges. For the teams, they have a nice location with grass and mature trees, electrical hook-up, furnish 40 or 50 pounds of ice and have volunteers to help position campers or trailer mounted smokers. The judges are in very roomy building with a mobile evaporative cooler and restrooms. The event takes place at a fairgrounds and they have a bluegrass festival (with lawn seating), food and beer vendors, a 5K walk & run, a farmers market, a pancake breakfast, a kids zone, a peoples choice, a kids-Q contest, and a car show. Motels offer discounts. The event draws about 2,500 spectators and the general admission is free, and this includes two days of bluegrass music.

gettinbasted said:

Are we operating under the assumption that contraction is a bad thing?

It’s professional BBQ. We don’t need 500 pro events or 8000 pro teams. It’s not supposed to be easy or for everyone.

Why not focus membership growth on backyard events and non-competitive cooks and let your front line pros serve as marketing ambassadors for the sport?

I think we just need to restructure and rethink how we’re organized and a growth boom will follow.

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Stuck in a box and can't find our way out.

gettinbasted said:

Are we operating under the assumption that contraction is a bad thing?

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It is for KCBS. Their revenue is solely based on volume. Volume of members, Volume of contests, Volume of competitors.

Slamdunkpro said:

It is for KCBS. Their revenue is solely based on volume. Volume of members, Volume of contests, Volume of competitors.

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I think you missed my point.

gettinbasted said:

Get in the chase and people will notice. One year I showed up after 10 to most events. The number of complaints to KCBS and the reps was staggering. Start winning on the regular and people will bitch about every little thing you do.

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Oh, I'm sure. I anxiously await that day. Tears are delicious.