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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind. |
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12-26-2007, 11:50 AM | #1 |
is one Smokin' Farker
Join Date: 12-04-05
Location: Wantagh, NY
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KCBS Judging Update
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12-26-2007, 01:15 PM | #2 |
Full Fledged Farker
Join Date: 07-01-07
Location: Hamlin, NY
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I'd like a definition of the word "average." Is it meant to be "your average Comp turn in," or "what you'd find at an average BBQ joint," or "the average of all BBQ that you have eaten?" Those points can vary quite a bit.... It will be interesting to see what the judging class brings this year. Thanks Sled for the update!
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Aaron 8 Ball and the 'Que Sticks Custom Southern Yankee rotisserie trailer towed by the 8-Ball RV Brinkmann Cimarron, Weber One Touch Gold (22.5), Camp Chef 2 burner stove + Griddle, 10, 16 and 20 qt Dutch ovens, Scottims Pit Grille |
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12-26-2007, 01:37 PM | #3 |
is One Chatty Farker
Join Date: 05-02-05
Location: Grain Valley, MO
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I like the fact that they added the definitions AND did anyway with the "starting point". As Aaron said, average is still open to interpretation but this helps put a little structure around the point values. I don't think you can teach what is average, or good, or bad; especially when it comes to taste. Its kind of like pornography - its hard to describe but you know it when you see it.
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12-26-2007, 01:44 PM | #4 |
somebody shut me the fark up.
Join Date: 05-24-04
Location: Long Beach, CA
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Whatever happened with the comment cards?
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Wait! Bigmista wrote a cookbook? Rec Tec RT-700 Bull Pitmaker Vault Remembering Scott |
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12-26-2007, 02:47 PM | #5 | |
Full Fledged Farker
Join Date: 07-01-07
Location: Hamlin, NY
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Quote:
My point is that I'd like to understand what they expect us to judge "average" to be. If I understand "average" to mean "the average of all BBQ I've eaten," I'd have to include things like a McRib (once, never again) and some pretty crappy 'Q that people try to pass off as the real thing. Think crock-pot and boiled ribs here. Those kinds of things bring my "average" way down. If I were to take an "average" of all 'Q I've tasted as a judge, well then, that's likely a different average to start with, isn't it? It wouldn't be pulled down with much of the crap I've been forced to try outside the circuit. Judging still comes back to what you are comparing it to in your own mind. Anyway, I just like to be anal about definitions I guess. I want to be as clear as possible - to make judging as good as possible. Don't get me wrong, I like the changes, I just want to clarify as much as possible. Plus it gives me something to ramble about.
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Aaron 8 Ball and the 'Que Sticks Custom Southern Yankee rotisserie trailer towed by the 8-Ball RV Brinkmann Cimarron, Weber One Touch Gold (22.5), Camp Chef 2 burner stove + Griddle, 10, 16 and 20 qt Dutch ovens, Scottims Pit Grille |
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12-26-2007, 03:17 PM | #6 |
Babbling Farker
Join Date: 05-03-07
Location: Olathe KS
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The Board of Directors have approved changes in the judging procedures for 2008. After, a year of testing and development, a new judging slip will be used beginning March 1st, 2008. Each number on the judging slip will have a definition associated with it. The starting point of six has been abolished. There will be no starting point. The definitions are as follows.
9 – Excellent 8 – Very Good 7 – Above Average 6 – Average 5 – Below Average 4 – Poor 3 – Bad 2 – Inedible 1 – Disqualified I think (and hope) this is a step in the right direction. The descriptive word at least gives the judge a reference to what they should score an entry based on what they see and taste. With a 4 being described as poor and 8 as very good, etc., I expect the randomness of the scoring from judge to judge to become less of an issue. I really hope this helps with the random scores from non certified judges, it should at least keep appearance and tenderness scores uniform for the most part. I agree the descriptives are subjective, but then so is taste.
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Boondoggle BBQ Country Smokers 450 Weber Smokey Mountain 18" Proud KCBS Member & Certified Judge |
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12-26-2007, 04:37 PM | #7 |
Babbling Farker
Join Date: 06-15-06
Location: Middletown, DE
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My question would be, why wait 'till March to implement the change, Why not start in January so that all events held in 2008 will be on equal judging standards.
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Ron Pigheaded BBQ Team www.pigheadedbbq.com KCBS CBJ Stumps Stretch (Raquel) Eagles Green. 1 -22" Weber WSM, 1 - 18"Weber WSM's 2 - 22" kettles 6x12 Haulmark Trailer |
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12-26-2007, 07:14 PM | #8 |
Full Fledged Farker
Join Date: 08-13-06
Location: Tulsa, Ok
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The Judging Slip with definitions is a program the Board began as a test program for 07. Jim Minion, Linda Mullane, Don Harwell, Mike Lake and myself used these cards at all of our contest. We found the definitions reduced inconsistent scoring from a range of 7-12 percent to a range of 5 - 7 percent.
The average GC score remained in line with other contest. The board after reviewing the data, voted to adopt the score cards with definitions for 08. However, the board latter voted to remove the 6 as a beginning point. I urged this to be delayed for a year, in order that we implement only one change at a time. My motion was voted down, and the 6 has been removed. I am concerned this will add to inconsistent scores rather than our goal in reducing this. The Board despite an overwhelming response in favor of the comment cards, voted to end comment cards. I cannot explain the reasons for I did not understand the debate. The March 1 date has been used over the past years for the date to implement rule changes. There are only 3 or 4 KCBS contest prior to this date. We must change the Judges CD for the removal of 6 and any changes in the rules. We are not perfect. No change is perfect. But the changes we are making are in an effort to improve KCBS. They have been tested and the result warranted the change. I appreciate the comments and thought I have received from the membership. Good luck in 08. Yours in Que Merl Whitebook |
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12-26-2007, 07:25 PM | #9 |
somebody shut me the fark up.
Join Date: 05-24-04
Location: Long Beach, CA
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We appreciate you being so accesible Merl.
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Wait! Bigmista wrote a cookbook? Rec Tec RT-700 Bull Pitmaker Vault Remembering Scott |
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12-26-2007, 07:30 PM | #10 |
somebody shut me the fark up.
Join Date: 05-24-04
Location: Long Beach, CA
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I just can't figure why the board wouldn't vote for the comemnt cards. We use them at our practice backyard contests here in California and the cooks love them. It helps to know why a judge gave you a particular score so you can working on improving your product.
I understand there would be some hurt feelings (there always are) but I can't think of a logical erason not to give constructive feedback to the cooks. Unless there aren't enough judges out there who are able to articulate their feeling in a sentence or two. I don't think that's the case, though. I would really be interested in why the BOD thinks this is a bad idea.
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Wait! Bigmista wrote a cookbook? Rec Tec RT-700 Bull Pitmaker Vault Remembering Scott |
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12-26-2007, 10:36 PM | #11 |
is One Chatty Farker
Join Date: 07-21-05
Location: patchogue, n.y.
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i don't get it. why is the midpoint below average? isn't poor and bad kinda the same thing? with it set up this way, even if you added sublime as #10 there would still be five grades below average and only four above it?
phil |
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12-26-2007, 11:45 PM | #12 | |
Quintessential Chatty Farker
Join Date: 11-12-06
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
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Quote:
I have judged a grand total of three comps thus far, so I am no expert. I do think that the table captain could / should keep an eye open for the judge(s) whose scores are way out of line with the other ones. I don't mean that each & every judge should mark the same way because there are differences in taste. I am talking about the one guy who gives a 4 or 5 when everyone else gives a 8 or 9. That person should be asked by the T.C. (or the Rep) why their score was way off. I know that the low score is thrown out, but what about the next comp where there might be that guy and another one or two whose scores are out of line? Maybe some of the judges should be judged on their judging. By the way, I don't compete on my own, but I have been a "dish-bitch" a couple of times.
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Dave Compton KCBS MasterCBJ # 22569 Member of the 100+ Contest Club Judge Number 6 competition BBQ team Possibly the only judge ever to get an award from a bunch of cooks UDS 075 UCB WSM and a bunch of other stuff. |
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12-26-2007, 11:53 PM | #13 |
Full Fledged Farker
Join Date: 09-25-05
Location: PDX
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The removal of the 6 starting point makes sense but I suspect it will make it a bit harder for new judges to figure out what an average entry should be.
I really liked the comment cards as a judge, we used them all of last under, and am really confused as to why they were not approved. I assume that there are some out there that were worried about too much negative feedback but one of the biggest issues I have with judgeing was that there was no feedback other than a number to the cooks.
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KCBS CBJ Traeger pellet 125 WSM x2 Weber Kettle Weber Summit Platinum D6 La Caja China #2 |
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12-27-2007, 11:59 AM | #14 |
is one Smokin' Farker
Join Date: 05-21-07
Location: Moberly, Mo
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The problem (which can not be fixed in my humble opinion) is the word average. What I consider average is going to be totaly different than what others might think is average. The Human factor can not be avoided.
I loved the idea of comments on the judging card. I also thought that they should also state if the judge was CBJ or not. However, a good friend of mine came back from a contest that used the comment cards and showed it to me. The comment was "best rib I ever tasted" However, under taste his scores were 7,6,7,7,5,7. Now if you heard that it was the best ever, wouldn't you think there would be a 9 on that card. It kind of sends a mix message, which for me as a cook would make me even madder. I think we know going in that judging is a perception. Will I stop cooking because of it (like the many others I know who have), no. I just keep having a good time. I want to thank the people on BOD, this discussion board, cooks, judges, contest reps, organizers and all volunteers at contest. If it was not for them, I would not have met such wonderful people.
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Paydabill Lit & Loaded BBQ I remember a day when I hated pellets - 2 pellet cookers latter! CBJ - love judging KCBS - member for 4 years MOFO Chapter Super fast - BLUE Thermopen |
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12-27-2007, 01:55 PM | #15 |
is One Chatty Farker
Join Date: 09-10-06
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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Another reason to stop training judges. Either you know good BBQ or you don't. I like that IBCA will use different judges at most every event. The judges are provided by the sponsoring party such as KofC, VFW, Elks etc. The head judge is only there to explain the simple rules. Here is the website for those rules: http://www.ibcabbq.org/topbar/rul.html
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"Grilla in the Pits" "IMAGRILLA" There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the mashed potatoes. Brinkmann Model 6668 Gasser Hibachi Grill Stumps GF223 w/ Stoker assist ECB that wins the $ Weber One-Touch Gold 22-1/2" #3 Komono Large BGE w/ Stoker assist 55 gallon Drum Smoker Wood Crate Cold smoker w/ smoke injector No need for certification, I already know good BBQ! |
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