Possible KCBS rules changes

[Lake Dogs]

Originally Posted by Scottie

then how can you cook and/or judge a MBA event?

Cook? I cook because we have a pretty good sized one 3 miles from
my house and 1/2 the town demands that I'm there. That's why. As
to judge, I no longer judge except a few contests (not MBN) where
I've worked with the organizers closely. Again, they'd have a fit if I
weren't there. I'm just not interested in judging any longer.

Does that answer your question?

Again, I thought this was a KCBS discussion, and not a personal thing, nor
a MBN thing.

My personal preference as to style is FBA.


> The topic is about KCBS. But it seems like you are talking out both sides of your mouth right now? I am confused...
>
> don't get me wrong, each sanctioing body has a place. But for those to come along and say that KCBS needs to change because > of garnish? It's never going to happen folks. Not as long as Carolyn Wells has a part with the KCBS.

I frankly am of the opinion that KCBS is the premier sanctioning body. If you've read something different and
I've confused you, I'm sorry. However, nothing is perfect. You cannot and never will please everyone. I know
that, and it doesn't hurt my feelings if you disagree. However, I dont care for the personal jabs. That tends
to tick me off.

I didnt say that "KCBS needs to change". I'm merely suggesting that they consider it. Merl hit it dead on (the
counter side), and I respect that, and I understand. But, I'll be honest, there's many more wonderful and unique
things about KCBS than the need for garnish. LOTS. I dont think it would lose it's cache if it were to drop
garnish.

You might find it interesting that I've proposed to at very least 14 organizers that they either adopt KCBS rules
and sanctioning and/or that they change from GBA and MBN to KCBS. One of the places that I referenced above
is changing this coming year to KCBS "style" as a result of my efforts. They want a year of "lets try this" before
they go the sanctioning route.... F Y I. I took CASI from 1 sanctioned cookoff in the state to now 8. I plan
on doing similar for/with KCBS.

[Capn Kev]

Originally Posted by Merl

Lake Dog,
If you look back, KCBS had a 7, 8, 9 judging system, when the instruction was to begin at 9 and judge down. The cooks absolutely hated and the board listened. We removed the point to begin and asked judges to judge based upon the quality of what was presented to them. This actually appear (in my opinion) to be a superior system. I did not have a vote, as this was done before I was on the Board, but I support the action as a good step. It resolved may issues where were objectionable to cooks and judges alike.

I believe that KCBS is not likely to go back unless some overwhelming reason was brought forward. The 987 did not work well in KCBS in the past. But things and times do change. I think the best response would be continued education for our CBJ's.

As to garnish, that is a yearly question. This will be discussed by the BOD Friday at the BOD meeting. I will tell you this. KCBS is unique, and we there is an attitude from membership to celebrate what makes KCBS unique.

KCBS only changes rules annually. The Rules meeting was held in January and will be presented to the Board in February for 2010.

Please keep track of ideas and present them at the next rules meeting, which may be in KC at the 25th Annual Banquet.
Yours in Que. (speaking only for myself)
Merl

Thanks for the info Merl. Good to see you the other night in Parker. Thanks for putting on the class! In your post above, you touched on one of the questions I failed to ask before the end of the night. ...and that is, is there a "refresher" course required, or is there a minimum number of contests per year that a CBJ needs to fulfill in order to maintain their CBJ status?

Also, the only minor complaint I had about last Friday night's CBJ class was that we were not really presented with a box that would have score 9's. So how is a judge supposed to know what "great" is if they have no sense of it going into a competition? I may have been a bit biased due to the fact that I have cooked competitions and have seen and tasted some winning entries.

Your insight is appreciated.

Kevin

[Alexa RnQ]

Originally Posted by Scottie

KCBS needs to change because of garnish? It's never going to happen folks. Not as long as Carolyn Wells has a part with the KCBS.

Hear, hear.
It's just garnish, it's not rocket science. And yes, it IS fully optional, as we have seen teams submit naked boxes and be highly rewarded for them.

The "contamination" and "waste" arguments are incredibly weak. When KCBS did respond to a contamination scare, the decision was reamed up one side and down the other -- no way to please everyone either way, it seems. Somebody with a fragile enough immune system to worry about possible contamination from garnish has absolutely no business judging a contest where food is prepared by unknown methods, in open conditions. And when it costs a cool thousand bucks to roll out of the driveway for one of these gigs, $12 for lavish garnish supplies is not even a factor.

There are multiple other sanctioning bodies that are available if garnish is such a terribly onerous task. But as my last two years of box photos and score sheets show, it's just not about the lettuce.

[Lake Dogs]

> Hear, hear.
> It's just garnish, it's not rocket science. And yes, it IS fully optional, as we
> have seen teams submit naked boxes and be highly rewarded for them.

I'll lose my $1 here (on the bet), but has there actually been a team who took
1st place in a category sans garnish?


> The "contamination" and "waste" arguments are incredibly weak.

Even I said it was weak (well, I think I said remote).

> When KCBS did respond to a contamination scare, the decision
> was reamed up one side and down the other -- no way to please
> everyone either way, it seems.

Yep, you cant win for losing sometimes. Agreed 100%.

> Somebody with a fragile enough immune system to worry about
> possible contamination from garnish has absolutely no business
> judging a contest where food is prepared by unknown methods,
> in open conditions.

On the one hand, I agree with you. HOWEVER, coming from someone
who is rarely sick with anything (maybe 1 in 10 years I'll get a little
cold), I had the wonderful (sarcasm) experience of contracting salmonella
about 20 years ago. I wont draw you a picture... Lets just say it's
disgusting, nasty, and can kill someone weaker than I was. It was a
complete fluke, but it happened. It's something for the BOD to consider
(taking away that possibility).


> And when it costs a cool thousand bucks to roll out of the driveway
> for one of these gigs, $12 for lavish garnish supplies is not even a factor.

I dont know about you, but we dont get decent greens around here. I
pre-order mine 45 miles away, then drive to get them, and drive back.
That $12 bunch of greens cost me another $10 in gas alone, not to mention
my time in the evening (because I work M-F 6am-5pm). It's just one more
thing on the list...

> There are multiple other sanctioning bodies that are available if garnish is
> such a terribly onerous task.

It's not such an onerous task, and as I stated above, I'm of the opinion that
KCBS is the premier sanctioning body. However, that doesn't mean that there's
not room for improvement. Hell, even I can stand to lose a few pounds.......


> But as my last two years of box photos and score sheets show, it's just
> not about the lettuce.

Never said it was. Plus, appearance score is weighted very low....

[Alexa RnQ]

The prospect of contracting salmonella is far greater when patronizing local restaurants. Funny, HD is all over our butts at some contests, most usually in counties where restaurants are swarming with rats and cockroaches -- which I haven't seen in any BBQ camp.

Getting garnish is more difficult for you. So? Getting sauce and rub is more difficult for me -- we make our own. Hell, getting TO a contest is more difficult for us -- we drive up to 17 hours one way to find one. Everybody's got their own hurdles, and the only place the playing field is perfectly level is inside that 9x9 styrofoam box.

As for improvement -- well, now we finally come to the "meat" of the matter. I find that as meat scores improve, concerns over garnish diminish. Nobody turns in 100% perfect meat every time not even Myron. Perhaps that's more difficult than arguing about garnish in the off-season.

[Jeff_in_KC]

I'm all in favor of keeping garnish too. I like the fact we (KCBS) are unique and I'll support Carolyn in this as long as I'm around.

Yes, I'm aware that it is a meat contest. Someone said something to the effect that if the garnish makes the meat look better, a judge took the garnish into account. My response to that is basically "big deal". It's not a sauce contest either but our shiney, perfectly placed sauce on the meat makes the meat look better. Not burning it makes the meat look better. There are a lot of things we can do to make the meat look better. Why are we bashing garnish when it's only ONE thing we do to improve the appearance of our boxes? If we outlaw garnish, sauce better be next. See how ridiculous this is getting?

[weconway]

First off, let me say that I just took my CBJ class and have no actual experience. Take what I say with a grain of salt...

I found it very confusing on how to judge based on one CBJ class. I am in no way saying my instruction was inadequate, just that the KCBS doesn't exactly do a good job telling you what the scoring system is supposed to mean. I understand that the CBJ is a ticket to a judging apprenticeship where you learn the finer details from the other experienced judges at comps.

As a future competitor, I learned from the class that garnish is for more than good looks. It keeps the meat from sitting in a puddle of juices and sauce and keeps it from sliding around the box. Thus the final product will be better packaged before serving.

I don't think garnish should affect scores, but hundreds of cook teams know that presentation will have a subtle effect on the perception of your product. I think the KCBS does then "require" garnish by default.

[Lake Dogs]

Originally Posted by DivaHerself

The prospect of contracting salmonella is far greater when patronizing local restaurants. Funny, HD is all over our butts at some contests, most usually in counties where restaurants are swarming with rats and cockroaches -- which I haven't seen in any BBQ camp.

Getting garnish is more difficult for you. So? Getting sauce and rub is more difficult for me -- we make our own. Hell, getting TO a contest is more difficult for us -- we drive up to 17 hours one way to find one. Everybody's got their own hurdles, and the only place the playing field is perfectly level is inside that 9x9 styrofoam box.

As for improvement -- well, now we finally come to the "meat" of the matter. I find that as meat scores improve, concerns over garnish diminish. Nobody turns in 100% perfect meat every time not even Myron. Perhaps that's more difficult than arguing about garnish in the off-season.

I, for one, am not arguing. It really doesnt matter to me. I merely
posed the question (reference at the very top):

Is it time to ditch garnish? There honestly is no way to ignore it.
The others have it gone...

> Getting garnish is more difficult for you. So?
You were the one making the statement. I was merely pointing out
that your statement was off and false, at least in my case. I wasn't
whining. I was, in essence, addressing your point.


> Hell, getting TO a contest is more difficult for us -- we drive up
> to 17 hours one way to find one.

I believe ya, and we can't do it. No way, no how. Dont have the
luxury of that much time away from work. If we cant get to it within
a 2 or 3 hour drive, we can't get there... But, that's us. That's about
99% of the reason why I work with city leaders, project managers, etc
who organize these so as to *grow* more cookoffs (because I enjoy
competing and can't drive that far).


> Getting sauce and rub is more difficult for me -- we make our own.

I special order the meat, and I have all the spices/rubs ordered and
delivered (Pendereys, etc). Come to think of it, I cannot think of a
competition we've competed in within the last 5+- yeas where we
used ANY consumable product purchased at the local store (other than
chuck roast we use in chili). No biggie. Always make my own sauce,
but I'm trying a combination of Blues Hog & BH Tennesse Red for
giggles... No local store carry that. Hell, I dont think it's carried
anywhere in the state... Always my own rub, using Pendereys and
Mild Bills spices (I'm not in Texas, they ship them to me). What, is
this now a "compare who jumps through more hoops to compete"
thing? That's silly, unnecessary, and completely off topic.

Wait. My bad. I use chicken thighs purchased at the local store
for the KCBS cookoff. My bad. Ok, chicken thighs and chuck roast
used in chili. That's it. Not even so much as black pepper is purchased here....



I merely asked "Is it time to ditch garnish?".


Somehow this was mistaken as an assault to the
very foundation of KCBS. It's not, nor was it intended to be. It's not
even a gripe about ordering and fetching greens. It's not.


I'm done. I'm tired of defending myself vs. talking about a topic.

Really. Simply this: The way the rules read (for judges), it's
impossible to do what they're being asked. As a result (of this and other
stuff), many teams either despise judges or the judging process (not
me). I posed a question as to whether it should be reconsidered.

No more; no less.


I'm done trying to discuss something when it's apparent very
few will actually discuss the topic. I'll drop it. Matter of fact:


Moderator, is there a way I can delete this whole topic/thread?

[Gowan]

Originally Posted by Lake Dogs

You might find it interesting that I've proposed to at very least 14 organizers that they either adopt KCBS rules and sanctioning and/or that they change from GBA and MBN to KCBS. One of the places that I referenced above is changing this coming year to KCBS "style" as a result of my efforts. They want a year of "lets try this" before they go the sanctioning route.... F Y I. I took CASI from 1 sanctioned cookoff in the state to now 8. I plan on doing similar for/with KCBS.

I'm sure we all appreciate your enthusiasm. However, there are quite a few folks who have been very active in promoting KCBS here in Georgia for many years, and have been doing a fine job. You might want to get to know some of them before you don the mantle of KCBS prophet for our state.

No offense, just sayin...

-Gowan

[Lake Dogs]

Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC

I'm all in favor of keeping garnish too. I like the fact we (KCBS) are unique and I'll support Carolyn in this as long as I'm around.

Yes, I'm aware that it is a meat contest. Someone said something to the effect that if the garnish makes the meat look better, a judge took the garnish into account. My response to that is basically "big deal". It's not a sauce contest either but our shiney, perfectly placed sauce on the meat makes the meat look better. Not burning it makes the meat look better. There are a lot of things we can do to make the meat look better. Why are we bashing garnish when it's only ONE thing we do to improve the appearance of our boxes? If we outlaw garnish, sauce better be next. See how ridiculous this is getting?

Jeff, I completely agree with you, 100%!!! However, please read how
the judges are instructed. Regarding garnish, they cannot abide by this.
It cannot be humanly done. So, I asked, either consider dropping the
garnish, or please reword the rules/instructions.

[Lake Dogs]

Originally Posted by CivilWarBBQ

I'm sure we all appreciate your enthusiasm. However, there are quite a few folks who have been very active in promoting KCBS here in Georgia for many years, and have been doing a fine job. You might want to get to know some of them before you don the mantle of KCBS prophet for our state.

No offense, just sayin...

-Gowan

Gowan,

I am not a KCBS profit for the state. Will never be. I'm work with
promoters and event coordinators and assist them in which style to
choose and why one makes sense vs. another.

Y'alls focus obviously has been N GA. Finally there's Waynesboro
and Oconee in the central part of the state. They're new, and
small, and wonderful, and I had nothing to do with either.

I was merely trying to explain to folks that I'm not anti-KCBS. That's
it. With any luck though, we'll have a few more KCBS cookoffs here
in the center of the state in the next few years. And, my appologies,
the damned new Macon one went MBN vs. KCBS. I found out about
them too late... Still working on that one. Maybe a joint sanctioning
in the future...

No offense taken. Like I said, I didnt claim to be KCBS profit, I'm not
a KCBS profit, and I never will be a KCBS profit.

[Jorge]

Originally Posted by Lake Dogs

I, for one, am not arguing. It really doesnt matter to me. I merely
posed the question (reference at the very top):

Is it time to ditch garnish? There honestly is no way to ignore it.
The others have it gone...

> Getting garnish is more difficult for you. So?
You were the one making the statement. I was merely pointing out
that your statement was off and false, at least in my case. I wasn't
whining. I was, in essence, addressing your point.


> Hell, getting TO a contest is more difficult for us -- we drive up
> to 17 hours one way to find one.

I believe ya, and we can't do it. No way, no how. Dont have the
luxury of that much time away from work. If we cant get to it within
a 2 or 3 hour drive, we can't get there... But, that's us. That's about
99% of the reason why I work with city leaders, project managers, etc
who organize these so as to *grow* more cookoffs (because I enjoy
competing and can't drive that far).


> Getting sauce and rub is more difficult for me -- we make our own.

I special order the meat, and I have all the spices/rubs ordered and
delivered (Pendereys, etc). Come to think of it, I cannot think of a
competition we've competed in within the last 5+- yeas where we
used ANY consumable product purchased at the local store (other than
chuck roast we use in chili). No biggie. Always make my own sauce,
but I'm trying a combination of Blues Hog & BH Tennesse Red for
giggles... No local store carry that. Hell, I dont think it's carried
anywhere in the state... Always my own rub, using Pendereys and
Mild Bills spices (I'm not in Texas, they ship them to me). What, is
this now a "compare who jumps through more hoops to compete"
thing? That's silly, unnecessary, and completely off topic.

Wait. My bad. I use chicken thighs purchased at the local store
for the KCBS cookoff. My bad. Ok, chicken thighs and chuck roast
used in chili. That's it. Not even so much as black pepper is purchased here....



I merely asked "Is it time to ditch garnish?".


Somehow this was mistaken as an assault to the
very foundation of KCBS. It's not, nor was it intended to be. It's not
even a gripe about ordering and fetching greens. It's not.


I'm done. I'm tired of defending myself vs. talking about a topic.

Really. Simply this: The way the rules read (for judges), it's
impossible to do what they're being asked. As a result (of this and other
stuff), many teams either despise judges or the judging process (not
me). I posed a question as to whether it should be reconsidered.

No more; no less.


I'm done trying to discuss something when it's apparent very
few will actually discuss the topic. I'll drop it. Matter of fact:


Moderator, is there a way I can delete this whole topic/thread?

I don't know that anyone took offense to your question. I think they did wonder where it was coming from based on some of your reasoning. I know I did, due to references to other organizations. I thought it was a fairly reasonable and friendly give and take.

[Lake Dogs]

Moderator, is there a way I can delete this whole topic/thread?

[Lake Dogs]

Originally Posted by Jorge

I don't know that anyone took offense to your question. I think they did wonder where it was coming from based on some of your reasoning. I know I did, due to references to other organizations. I thought it was a fairly reasonable and friendly give and take.

Jorge, yours absolutely WAS (reasonable [more than fairly too] and
friendly give and take).

[Jorge]

Originally Posted by Lake Dogs

Moderator, is there a way I can delete this whole topic/thread?

I don't think that is necessary, or warranted. Perhaps another moderator will view the thread differently.