Test Slips and Comment Cards your thoughts

Merl · 05-07-2007, 07:13 PM

Bunny Tuttle has made a motion to terminate the test judging slip program and the judges comment cards.

This was a program which we began 4 weeks ago, in response to the comments by many cooks. A few very vocal members have demanded an end to the program. We do not even have 4 weeks of data to evaluate, and those who want to end the program have not seen any data.

I don't want to tell you what position to take, but I want more than few people with their personal opinions to rule what the members want.

Please write to the Board. Tell them to vote up or down as you believe will benefit you the cooks, you the judges, you the members.
The meeting is Wednesday night.
Thank you
Merl Whitebook

E-mail to the board

[email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]

MilitantSquatter · 05-07-2007, 07:45 PM

Merl - Without knowing the background as to why anyone would want to do away with a pilot program only four weeks in is beyond me and makes it tough to make a decision...Can you possibly shed some light as to the reason Bunny Tuttle gave for making this motion ?...

What reasons have these "vocal members" given for abandoning a program ?

Politics at it's best... gotta love it... I give you credit Merl for trying to do the right thing... can't be much fun..

JohnMcD348 · 05-07-2007, 08:09 PM

What exactly was on these sheets? Is there a place where we can download or view them?

I agree, it seems odd that someone would want to end a program before it even gets started unless there is some other reason behind it.

bbqbull · 05-07-2007, 08:11 PM

Merl, thanks for advising of this. Im not sure what this new pilot program entailes. Could you please advise us here.
That way we have a detailed information packet to think about and then decide whats going on.

Thanks again

Mike

Dustaway · 05-07-2007, 08:32 PM

Merl,
Having only competed in one KCBS event Hammond where the comment cards were used I found them very useful, keep in mind that we only received comments in one category but it still was a help. I personally believe that some of the people don't like the comment cards because it helps the new teams too much in what the judges might be looking for?? I can't believe that if the comments are used correctly they can't but help?

BTW I hope do be able to do more KCBS events

YankeeBBQ · 05-08-2007, 10:05 AM

Some cooks believe the comment sheets and score descriptions are affecting the scores of the contest. Some cooks don't want to be guinea pigs for the new system, they are comfortable with the old one. Some cooks want to know which contests are testing the new system so they can decide whether or not they want to compete there. Some contest organizers want to know if they can opt out of the test. There are lots of questions out there and few answers. I think Bunny and some other board members are taking some heat. Maybe there wasn't enough thought put into this before it was decided to test the new system. I'm not saying this is how I feel but I've read others comments on the situation.

jminion · 05-08-2007, 11:45 AM

Some cooks want to know why they get 7,8 or 9s from judges on a table and then 4s and 5s from another? There is the final scores from Kings Mountain where the overall score was down less than 2 points from 2006 but 11 points higher than the 2005 contest. When you look at scores from contests in North and South Carolina the scores at Kings Mountain are in line with the other contests and the rant posted on Basso forum was not based in any facts but a case of Chicken Little's the Sky is falling.

We have learned some interesting things from the few contests that have used the Beta score cards and comment cards and I can also see how we can raise scores by changing the word values for each score, without the test this information would be simply a matter of guessing.

Jim

Pig Headed · 05-08-2007, 12:31 PM

I'm pretty new to the competition part of BBQ, but I can't see where this test has had a chance to be fairly evaluated in just 4 weeks. I say give it until the end of the season, then objectively evaluate it. This will enable the BOD to compare scores over the past and also regional trends. Some people resist any change. It disturbs their comfort level.

Paola Greg · 05-08-2007, 01:06 PM

We haven't competed where the test judging slips have been used, so have no first hand comments. I've read the negative comments, and the positive ones. I really don't see how assigning a description by a number score could have a negative impact to any particular team where the same judging slips are used for all at the same contest.

With that said, I trust the Board to make the right decision. If the majority of them feel this change might be one that will improve scoring and consistency, (which I don't think is flawed), then I say keep up the test period. If the majority of them feel it does more harm than good and want to discontinue its use, then that is OK also.

Arlin_MacRae · 05-08-2007, 03:41 PM

With my usual "I'm not a competitor, but" caveat, I have to think that they're just being resistant to ANY change - not that there's something wrong with the concepts of slips and judging cards.

Let me ask this: Is there a reason why you couldn't tell them something like "We govern this body and we will complete the test"? Are they so pig-headed, you think, that they'll LEAVE? And if they do, what are the consequences? If they're still obstinate you might remind them they are there for the cookers, not the other way around!

Arlin

Scottie · 05-08-2007, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jminion

Some cooks want to know why they get 7,8 or 9s from judges on a table and then 4s and 5s from another? There is the final scores from Kings Mountain where the overall score was down less than 2 points from 2006 but 11 points higher than the 2005 contest. When you look at scores from contests in North and South Carolina the scores at Kings Mountain are in line with the other contests and the rant posted on Basso forum was not based in any facts but a case of Chicken Little's the Sky is falling.

We have learned some interesting things from the few contests that have used the Beta score cards and comment cards and I can also see how we can raise scores by changing the word values for each score, without the test this information would be simply a matter of guessing.

Jim

I can see being able to use some data for beta testing. But do you feel that these score cards and comment cards could effect how a judge may score? If there is any chance that a judge may score differently because of the cards, then I don't think they should be only used at certain contests. I guess my thinking is all in or all out... Don't just use them at certain contests.

Scottie

lunchlady · 05-08-2007, 04:14 PM

I honestly can't see that it would make that big of a difference if everyone at the same contest was judged using the same judging slips, I mean, so what if they are up against other events that aren't using the test slips. How many points difference are they talking...5? 20? 100? If I am wrong, someone let me know, but I didn't think they even used the actual scores from the event for KCBS ToY anyway. I know it will affect the overall 'how many points a team gets for cooking' thing.
According to the earliest of the 'analyzed data', most of the scores are really just about the same, Or at least in the same basic range as the scores in the past. Sometimes you just gotta go with it until the testing stage is over. I thought the reason that they changed them this time was because of the ranting on different forums about inconsistent judging. Now, the rant has changed it's color, yet again.

craziness... but I'll keep cooking... with or without the test slips or the comment cards.

BBQchef33 · 05-08-2007, 04:31 PM

Why would a comment change a score? I competed in a couple contests that used the comments cards. not every judge used them, and those that did only commented in a very generic sense. One "really enjoyed the teryaki flavor" on my chicken... which was interesting since there was no teriyaki in the recipe. Point is, i can not see anything negative coming out of using the cards. Personally, I would welcome legitimate feedback, good or bad and can only see it improving the end product by making us aware of the + or - of what were doing.

YankeeBBQ · 05-08-2007, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBQchef33

Why would a comment change a score? I competed in a couple contests that used the comments cards. not every judge used them, and those that did only commented in a very generic sense. One "really enjoyed the teryaki flavor" on my chicken... which was interesting since there was no teriyaki in the recipe. Point is, i can not see anything negative coming out of using the cards. Personally, I would welcome legitimate feedback, good or bad and can only see it improving the end product by making us aware of the + or - of what were doing.

A comment may not but the score sheets with the description next to the number might. As in (2) It's total Crap (3)It's pretty Lousy (4) Taste like something my mother in law might cook (5) Welcome to Applebees (6) Maybe this team has cooked a contest or two (7) This is worth getting off the couch to try (8,) Damn that's good (9) YankeeBBQ must have cooked this.

habenero · 05-08-2007, 06:17 PM

As everybody knows KCBS judging needs help and the slips are making judging more consistent and credible. I am new to comp. cooking only because I have heard alot of stories about judging and the "obsolete"
points software. Been catering BBQ
since 2001. Lurking Basso's Forum since 1998. Entering only 3 contests so far this year has been fun, but confusing to me as a rookie. I think someone is afraid of progress(board members) and that something good will happen with the membership voting out whom ever is behind this jealous and stupid decision. A few board members are probably going to be packing early.
We Hope:
habenero

Stand behind Merl and Jim and quit straddling the fence. Can't you see the progress?

05-07-2007, 07:13 PM	#1
Merl Full Fledged Farker Join Date: 08-13-06 Location: Tulsa, Ok	Test Slips and Comment Cards your thoughts Bunny Tuttle has made a motion to terminate the test judging slip program and the judges comment cards. This was a program which we began 4 weeks ago, in response to the comments by many cooks. A few very vocal members have demanded an end to the program. We do not even have 4 weeks of data to evaluate, and those who want to end the program have not seen any data. I don't want to tell you what position to take, but I want more than few people with their personal opinions to rule what the members want. Please write to the Board. Tell them to vote up or down as you believe will benefit you the cooks, you the judges, you the members. The meeting is Wednesday night. Thank you Merl Whitebook E-mail to the board [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]

05-07-2007, 07:45 PM	#2
MilitantSquatter Moderator Join Date: 09-17-05 Location: Mooresville, NC	Merl - Without knowing the background as to why anyone would want to do away with a pilot program only four weeks in is beyond me and makes it tough to make a decision...Can you possibly shed some light as to the reason Bunny Tuttle gave for making this motion ?... What reasons have these "vocal members" given for abandoning a program ? Politics at it's best... gotta love it... I give you credit Merl for trying to do the right thing... can't be much fun.. __________________ XL BGE (#2) & Performer Platinum Former owner: Jambo Backyard, Klose BYC, Lonestar Vertical offset w/ Insulated Firebox, Medium Spicewine, Pitts & Spitts, XL BGE (#1) & (2) Medium BGE's, 22" WSM & (2) 18" WSM's, 18" & 22" Weber Kettles

05-07-2007, 08:09 PM	#3
JohnMcD348 is One Chatty Farker Join Date: 01-27-05 Location: Lakeland, FL	What exactly was on these sheets? Is there a place where we can download or view them? I agree, it seems odd that someone would want to end a program before it even gets started unless there is some other reason behind it. __________________ JTMcD. We sleep peaceful in our beds because Rough Men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harm.......G. Orwell Brinkman Smoke King Deluxe, The Famous StudeDera, Weber Smokey Joe Gold and Platinum, Brinkman Professional Grill, Brinkman ECB and 2 Weber Smoky Mountians

05-07-2007, 08:11 PM	#4
bbqbull Watching over us. Join Date: 12-27-05 Location: Mid Michigan	Merl, thanks for advising of this. Im not sure what this new pilot program entailes. Could you please advise us here. That way we have a detailed information packet to think about and then decide whats going on. Thanks again Mike __________________ "You have never really lived until you have done something for someone who can never repay you." "I wish my mind could forget what my eyes have seen. :shocked:" "Heavily medicated for your protection. :doh:" Klose Mobile Pit Klose Owners Reccomended Pit Cookshack Smokette Gasser Little Chief Smoker Large BGE Gifted to me my Pit Barrel Smoker :mrgreen::clap:[URL="http://www.bbq-brethren.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/"][/URL]

05-07-2007, 08:32 PM	#5
Dustaway is one Smokin' Farker Join Date: 08-22-06 Location: Tomball,Texas	Merl, Having only competed in one KCBS event Hammond where the comment cards were used I found them very useful, keep in mind that we only received comments in one category but it still was a help. I personally believe that some of the people don't like the comment cards because it helps the new teams too much in what the judges might be looking for?? I can't believe that if the comments are used correctly they can't but help? BTW I hope do be able to do more KCBS events __________________ "She Thinks My Slabs Are Sexy" One Man Dual Offset Stick Burner Ole Hickory Ultra Que 22" WSM Backwoods Chubby "Never let your persistence and passion turn into stubbornness and ignorance." Anthony J. D'Angelo

05-08-2007, 10:05 AM	#6
YankeeBBQ is One Chatty Farker Join Date: 02-07-06 Location: boston ma	Some cooks believe the comment sheets and score descriptions are affecting the scores of the contest. Some cooks don't want to be guinea pigs for the new system, they are comfortable with the old one. Some cooks want to know which contests are testing the new system so they can decide whether or not they want to compete there. Some contest organizers want to know if they can opt out of the test. There are lots of questions out there and few answers. I think Bunny and some other board members are taking some heat. Maybe there wasn't enough thought put into this before it was decided to test the new system. I'm not saying this is how I feel but I've read others comments on the situation. __________________ Steve Farrin KCBS BOD member. Thank you for your support. This post is my opinion and mine alone, not necessarily that of the KCBS, it's board of directors or office nor that of Peter Pan, Tinkerbell and certainly not Rush Limbaugh.

05-08-2007, 11:45 AM	#7
jminion is one Smokin' Farker Join Date: 07-07-04 Location: Federal Way WA	Some cooks want to know why they get 7,8 or 9s from judges on a table and then 4s and 5s from another? There is the final scores from Kings Mountain where the overall score was down less than 2 points from 2006 but 11 points higher than the 2005 contest. When you look at scores from contests in North and South Carolina the scores at Kings Mountain are in line with the other contests and the rant posted on Basso forum was not based in any facts but a case of Chicken Little's the Sky is falling. We have learned some interesting things from the few contests that have used the Beta score cards and comment cards and I can also see how we can raise scores by changing the word values for each score, without the test this information would be simply a matter of guessing. Jim __________________ Jim www.twoloosescrewsbbq.com Ole Hickory EL/EDx WSM Primos Klose couple of Ranch kettles

05-08-2007, 12:31 PM	#8
Pig Headed Babbling Farker Join Date: 06-15-06 Location: Middletown, DE	I'm pretty new to the competition part of BBQ, but I can't see where this test has had a chance to be fairly evaluated in just 4 weeks. I say give it until the end of the season, then objectively evaluate it. This will enable the BOD to compare scores over the past and also regional trends. Some people resist any change. It disturbs their comfort level. __________________ Ron Pigheaded BBQ Team www.pigheadedbbq.com KCBS CBJ Stumps Stretch (Raquel) Eagles Green. 1 -22" Weber WSM, 1 - 18"Weber WSM's 2 - 22" kettles 6x12 Haulmark Trailer

05-08-2007, 01:06 PM	#9
Paola Greg Full Fledged Farker Join Date: 11-14-05 Location: Paola, KS	We haven't competed where the test judging slips have been used, so have no first hand comments. I've read the negative comments, and the positive ones. I really don't see how assigning a description by a number score could have a negative impact to any particular team where the same judging slips are used for all at the same contest. With that said, I trust the Board to make the right decision. If the majority of them feel this change might be one that will improve scoring and consistency, (which I don't think is flawed), then I say keep up the test period. If the majority of them feel it does more harm than good and want to discontinue its use, then that is OK also. __________________ Greg Ribs 4 U

05-08-2007, 03:41 PM	#10
Arlin_MacRae somebody shut me the fark up. Join Date: 04-14-04 Location: Choctaw, OK	With my usual "I'm not a competitor, but" caveat, I have to think that they're just being resistant to ANY change - not that there's something wrong with the concepts of slips and judging cards. Let me ask this: Is there a reason why you couldn't tell them something like "We govern this body and we will complete the test"? Are they so pig-headed, you think, that they'll LEAVE? And if they do, what are the consequences? If they're still obstinate you might remind them they are there for the cookers, not the other way around! Arlin __________________ Arlin MacRae Primo Oval Junior, Traeger Model 075 Pellet Pooper, Big Chief, Kingfisher Kooker 14" gas/wood combo, PBC Brethren Edition, Pit Boss NASCAR Tailgater Home Brewer, Murderer of Squirrels, Armadillo Inspector Flaming Pig Head Mod Certified KCBS Master BBQ Judge

05-08-2007, 04:14 PM	#12
lunchlady is one Smokin' Farker Join Date: 01-05-06 Location: Rockland, MA	I honestly can't see that it would make that big of a difference if everyone at the same contest was judged using the same judging slips, I mean, so what if they are up against other events that aren't using the test slips. How many points difference are they talking...5? 20? 100? If I am wrong, someone let me know, but I didn't think they even used the actual scores from the event for KCBS ToY anyway. I know it will affect the overall 'how many points a team gets for cooking' thing. According to the earliest of the 'analyzed data', most of the scores are really just about the same, Or at least in the same basic range as the scores in the past. Sometimes you just gotta go with it until the testing stage is over. I thought the reason that they changed them this time was because of the ranting on different forums about inconsistent judging. Now, the rant has changed it's color, yet again. craziness... but I'll keep cooking... with or without the test slips or the comment cards. __________________ [I][FONT=Century Gothic]michelle[/FONT][/I] [I][FONT=Century Gothic]lunchmeat BBQ team[/FONT][/I] [I][FONT=Century Gothic]President - New England BBQ Society[/FONT][/I] [URL="http://www.nebs.org"][I][FONT=Century Gothic]www.nebs.org[/FONT][/I][/URL] [I][FONT=Century Gothic]2 Backwoods Partys [/FONT][/I] [I][FONT=Century Gothic]WSM, 2 Weber kettles, Weber Performer[/FONT][/I] [I][FONT=Century Gothic]Large BGE[/FONT][/I]

05-08-2007, 04:31 PM	#13
BBQchef33 Grand Poobah and Site Admin Join Date: 08-11-03 Location: Long Island, NY Name/Nickname : Phil	Why would a comment change a score? I competed in a couple contests that used the comments cards. not every judge used them, and those that did only commented in a very generic sense. One "really enjoyed the teryaki flavor" on my chicken... which was interesting since there was no teriyaki in the recipe. Point is, i can not see anything negative coming out of using the cards. Personally, I would welcome legitimate feedback, good or bad and can only see it improving the end product by making us aware of the + or - of what were doing. __________________ Site Administrator and Grand PooBah CBJ with a Fuzzy Blue Hat, 18 Foot Competition Trailer, Customized Klose BYC, Custom Built Shirley built to feed our Veterans(A.K.A "Abrams"), 1 Double Barreled Lang 84, 1 Heavily Modified Bionic Bandera, 1 Custom Super Medium Stickburning Spicewine w/stoker, 2 XL BGE, 1 Mini BGE, 2 Pit Barrel Cookers, 3 WSMs, 3 Weber Kettles, an NB Hondo, A Modified Brinkman Horizontal, DCS 48" Grill, a Broilmaster P3, a Blackstone 36 and 17, a covered, pellet pooping FEC100, and our duck died. :( News Flash: "A mans worth is judged by the weight of his integrity " You know your getting older when you choose your cereal for the fiber, not the toy Smoke on KC. WWW.BBQ-BRETHREN.COM

05-08-2007, 06:17 PM	#15
habenero Is lookin for wood to cook with. Join Date: 04-08-07 Location: Oklahoma Hills	keep the slips or run backwards! As everybody knows KCBS judging needs help and the slips are making judging more consistent and credible. I am new to comp. cooking only because I have heard alot of stories about judging and the "obsolete" points software. Been catering BBQ since 2001. Lurking Basso's Forum since 1998. Entering only 3 contests so far this year has been fun, but confusing to me as a rookie. I think someone is afraid of progress(board members) and that something good will happen with the membership voting out whom ever is behind this jealous and stupid decision. A few board members are probably going to be packing early. We Hope: habenero Stand behind Merl and Jim and quit straddling the fence. Can't you see the progress? __________________ Habenero Hovering over 500,000 scoville units of heat and rising! Friedrich Max Flavor 400 Home Made 36"X 16" Offset First Grill made at Oklahoma Joes for their use. Jumbo Big Drum Smoker Numerous small Cookers too numerous to mention.

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