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Old 06-19-2019, 09:30 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by ModelMaker View Post
I'm assuming you were judging since you can report with such clarity.
Why would you not call the Rep over explain what she said and request her removal? It (Shi**y judges) can change but it will take an effort instead of just shaking your head and posting stories.
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Nope, it was overheard in the cooks area after judging was completed. What as a cook am I supposed to do to "take an effort" instead of "posting stories" of what we hear and are told?
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Old 06-19-2019, 10:02 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by manmeatbbq View Post
Agreed. This is the problem with judging, not some seating program. Re-certification of judges would be a great start. However, KCBS has to come out with a list of FAQs for judging classes, so that all the instructors of judging classes answer those very commonly asked questions the same.

You will still get judges that say they will never give someone a 9, and when that happens, KCBS needs to make sure they revoke their judging certification.
Current CBJ's can audit any Judges Class for content at no charge, but may not be able to actually sample meats. Earlier this year I volunteered to help with building boxes and table captain for the hands-on judging portion of a CBJ class. But I sat-in on the first half of the class just as a refresher for myself. The Reps reviewed the 2019 Rules, the Judges Handbook, had a Power Point (or .pdf) presentation which followed the Handbook, they had notes, and they paused for questions from the new Judges, and also paused to ask the Judges questions. There was a table set-up with 8 or 9 boxes for a garnish quiz which was graded and then discussed by the class.

During the second half of the class the Table Captains could only announce numbers, present for appearance, pass the boxes along for taste and tenderness judging, and collect the boxes..... we were instructed to answer NO questions, or volunteer any information. All questions were fielded by the Reps and then discussed with the class as a whole.

I noticed Monday that the CBJ Continuing Education Refresher Test is now on the revamped website, so I took it. The MCBJ Practice Test had not launched yet. The test is auto scoring, and the instructions say your score AND any missed questions will be emailed to you. I got my score, and I did miss a couple of questions, but the email did not list the missed questions so hopefully this is one of the small things they are working out. If you login to the Member section of KCBS, then go to Judges Portal you can see your contest score history and also the date and score of the practice tests. These are a good idea to take annually.

So, it seems there is standardization of the CBJ classes. Could there be more? Or more in depth? Likely so, but what is a good start? I would like to see "KCBS approved" training videos in the members section of the site. Maybe a lecture or interview format. And maybe sample tests with photographs would be helpful.
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Old 06-19-2019, 04:26 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by thirdeye View Post
Current CBJ's can audit any Judges Class for content at no charge, but may not be able to actually sample meats. Earlier this year I volunteered to help with building boxes and table captain for the hands-on judging portion of a CBJ class. But I sat-in on the first half of the class just as a refresher for myself. The Reps reviewed the 2019 Rules, the Judges Handbook, had a Power Point (or .pdf) presentation which followed the Handbook, they had notes, and they paused for questions from the new Judges, and also paused to ask the Judges questions. There was a table set-up with 8 or 9 boxes for a garnish quiz which was graded and then discussed by the class.

During the second half of the class the Table Captains could only announce numbers, present for appearance, pass the boxes along for taste and tenderness judging, and collect the boxes..... we were instructed to answer NO questions, or volunteer any information. All questions were fielded by the Reps and then discussed with the class as a whole.

I noticed Monday that the CBJ Continuing Education Refresher Test is now on the revamped website, so I took it. The MCBJ Practice Test had not launched yet. The test is auto scoring, and the instructions say your score AND any missed questions will be emailed to you. I got my score, and I did miss a couple of questions, but the email did not list the missed questions so hopefully this is one of the small things they are working out. If you login to the Member section of KCBS, then go to Judges Portal you can see your contest score history and also the date and score of the practice tests. These are a good idea to take annually.

So, it seems there is standardization of the CBJ classes. Could there be more? Or more in depth? Likely so, but what is a good start? I would like to see "KCBS approved" training videos in the members section of the site. Maybe a lecture or interview format. And maybe sample tests with photographs would be helpful.

I definitely think this is a great start. However, I do think every judge should have a date of last certification and be required to re-certify on a set basis, whether it be every 2 years or whatever. If their certification date is beyond that, then they aren't a certified judge, which would tend to keep them from judging many contests. I don't know that a complete online re-certification will cure some judges, but it definitely can't hurt as a start.

Where the training breaks down most of the time is when an instructor provides their opinion as answers to some questions. Removing this opinion from the instructor is the challenge that KCBS has to help level the playing field. Again, you can't change taste buds or the quality of the turn-in, but you can at least make sure all the judges are starting from the same frame of mind, or framework, when it comes to scoring. This, I think, is what all the cooks are really looking for.
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Old 06-19-2019, 04:44 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by manmeatbbq View Post
I definitely think this is a great start. However, I do think every judge should have a date of last certification and be required to re-certify on a set basis, whether it be every 2 years or whatever. If their certification date is beyond that, then they aren't a certified judge, which would tend to keep them from judging many contests. I don't know that a complete online re-certification will cure some judges, but it definitely can't hurt as a start.

Where the training breaks down most of the time is when an instructor provides their opinion as answers to some questions. Removing this opinion from the instructor is the challenge that KCBS has to help level the playing field. Again, you can't change taste buds or the quality of the turn-in, but you can at least make sure all the judges are starting from the same frame of mind, or framework, when it comes to scoring. This, I think, is what all the cooks are really looking for.
Agreed. Honestly, that's why I think that the bulk of the training should be online. That's the only way to control the training, and control the information given to judges.
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Old 06-19-2019, 05:11 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by manmeatbbq View Post
I definitely think this is a great start. However, I do think every judge should have a date of last certification and be required to re-certify on a set basis, whether it be every 2 years or whatever. If their certification date is beyond that, then they aren't a certified judge, which would tend to keep them from judging many contests.
This really needs to happen along with some type of closed book certification test. Think about this If you are a CBJ and become a KCBS life member you are a valid CBJ forever.
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Old 06-20-2019, 07:28 AM   #156
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Nope, it was overheard in the cooks area after judging was completed. What as a cook am I supposed to do to "take an effort" instead of "posting stories" of what we hear and are told?

It would be hard to demand action on something that was not witnessed by yourself. This could just as easily have been mostly opinion.
In your case you could have asked the source what table and seat this person was seated at and exactly what was said. Better yet bring the complainant and Rep together ASAP and require the Rep to take action.
You can always do something.
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Old 06-20-2019, 09:33 AM   #157
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It would be hard to demand action on something that was not witnessed by yourself. This could just as easily have been mostly opinion.
In your case you could have asked the source what table and seat this person was seated at and exactly what was said. Better yet bring the complainant and Rep together ASAP and require the Rep to take action.
You can always do something.
Ed
I guess the junk scores and comment cards that several teams got from the same judge on one particular table I guess was just heresay and mostly opinion then........ got it.



How the hell do I require the rep to take action? What are they going to do about it? They didn't do anything when it was clearly obvious the judge wasn't scoring with the rest of the table?
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Old 06-20-2019, 10:16 AM   #158
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I guess the junk scores and comment cards that several teams got from the same judge on one particular table I guess was just heresay and mostly opinion then........ got it.



How the hell do I require the rep to take action? What are they going to do about it? They didn't do anything when it was clearly obvious the judge wasn't scoring with the rest of the table?



As you're aware, the reps have had their hands tied for quite a while as concerns the matter of addressing judges during/between scoring. This should be changed, but it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.


Personally, I have been talked to on multiple occasions by reps early in my judging "career", and believe it should be allowed to continue. When I would write a low score, I assumed that the rep would come over to speak with me, and I sure as hell better have a good explanation and a comment card ready for them. How is this a bad thing?


If I run for (and get elected) to the Board in 2020, my only platform issue will be the immediate implementation of a real-time judge correction directive ...


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Old 06-20-2019, 10:27 AM   #159
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If a Rep counsels a judge, and their scoring changes every entry that lands on that table subsequent to said counseling has an advantage. If nothing is said, until after judging is complete each team had the same opportunity to land on that table.

If you are going to be consistent, and want Rep intervention during judging for the outlier you need to get on board with the mystical and magical judge seating program:)
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:05 AM   #160
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If you are going to be consistent, and want Rep intervention during judging for the outlier you need to get on board with the mystical and magical judge seating program:)
What does that judge seating program have anything to do with calling out ****ty judges?
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:10 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by manmeatbbq View Post
I definitely think this is a great start. However, I do think every judge should have a date of last certification and be required to re-certify on a set basis, whether it be every 2 years or whatever. If their certification date is beyond that, then they aren't a certified judge, which would tend to keep them from judging many contests. I don't know that a complete online re-certification will cure some judges, but it definitely can't hurt as a start.

Where the training breaks down most of the time is when an instructor provides their opinion as answers to some questions. Removing this opinion from the instructor is the challenge that KCBS has to help level the playing field. Again, you can't change taste buds or the quality of the turn-in, but you can at least make sure all the judges are starting from the same frame of mind, or framework, when it comes to scoring. This, I think, is what all the cooks are really looking for.
What would a mandatory re-certification involve? In my area judging classes are not that frequent, and I would think that re-certification would not require as much time as initial certification.... traveling 500 miles to a re-certification site might not be that popular and be hard to mandate. However, at every competition, you have a room full of judges. Could time be set aside before judge check-in or between 2pm and the award announcement for some sort of re-certification? If re-certification involved an exam the Reps could assign a proctor for that task.


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Agreed. Honestly, that's why I think that the bulk of the training should be online. That's the only way to control the training, and control the information given to judges.
I agree with the online option. Standardization is the key. People absorb information differently, so a written manual, a Power Point, and/or a video with narration are all good choices.

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This really needs to happen along with some type of closed book certification test. Think about this If you are a CBJ and become a KCBS life member you are a valid CBJ forever.
I suppose you could cheat or have the rules and Judges Handbook in front of you when taking any online test including the current practice test, but they could incorporate a timer to discourage that. Have you taken the online practice test, and if so... what did you think of the caliber of the questions themselves?
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:12 AM   #162
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If I run for (and get elected) to the Board in 2020, my only platform issue will be the immediate implementation of a real-time judge correction

Tbh. I have watched you post on this board for years now and I don’t think you have the right mindset to be an effective board member. You would be better served to be on the judging committee and implement change there.
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:54 AM   #163
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Tbh. I have watched you post on this board for years now and I don’t think you have the right mindset to be an effective board member. You would be better served to be on the judging committee and implement change there.

I couldn't agree more . At least now, when friends ask me if I'm going to run, I'll direct them to this thread
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Old 06-20-2019, 12:04 PM   #164
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What does that judge seating program have anything to do with calling out ****ty judges?
The judge seating program and counseling judges about their scoring while judging is still in progress are both examples of KCBS having a direct impact on the results of the contest.

I formed my opinion about counseling or removing judges during the first year of Sam's Club. At the Austin local I believe two judges were dismissed due to low scores. Afterwards it came up while I was around a very well known, and successful cook, that I know you know. He wasn't pleased and his rational was that every team should have had the opportunity to hit that same table. I can't argue with that logic. I believe that the same applies to counseling a judge about their scoring during judging. If they adjust, every entry they judged prior is at a disadvantage. The organization responsible for administering a fair and unbiased contest will have a direct impact on the outcome.

Based on your posts, you believe that judge seating is a train wreck. I haven't researched the results enough to pick a side in that debate. I don't support seating judges based on their scoring average for a number of reasons, but what I personally believe isn't relevant here. By seating the judges KCBS is having a direct impact on the results. In your public opinion it's a negative impact. In the opinion of those that support the policy it's positive. What can't be debated is that KCBS has a direct impact, either positive or negative, on the outcome of the contest.

If influencing a judge to change their scoring is fair game, deciding where judges sit based on HOW THEY SCORE should be as well.

Finally, before getting back to work, my initial post wasn't directed at you specifically. You've been vocal about these issues and it's representative of the way a lot of people feel. If you took it any other way, feel free to shoot me a PM.
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Old 06-21-2019, 09:54 AM   #165
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The judge seating program and counseling judges about their scoring while judging is still in progress are both examples of KCBS having a direct impact on the results of the contest.

I formed my opinion about counseling or removing judges during the first year of Sam's Club. At the Austin local I believe two judges were dismissed due to low scores. Afterwards it came up while I was around a very well known, and successful cook, that I know you know. He wasn't pleased and his rational was that every team should have had the opportunity to hit that same table. I can't argue with that logic. I believe that the same applies to counseling a judge about their scoring during judging. If they adjust, every entry they judged prior is at a disadvantage. The organization responsible for administering a fair and unbiased contest will have a direct impact on the outcome.

Based on your posts, you believe that judge seating is a train wreck. I haven't researched the results enough to pick a side in that debate. I don't support seating judges based on their scoring average for a number of reasons, but what I personally believe isn't relevant here. By seating the judges KCBS is having a direct impact on the results. In your public opinion it's a negative impact. In the opinion of those that support the policy it's positive. What can't be debated is that KCBS has a direct impact, either positive or negative, on the outcome of the contest.

If influencing a judge to change their scoring is fair game, deciding where judges sit based on HOW THEY SCORE should be as well.

Finally, before getting back to work, my initial post wasn't directed at you specifically. You've been vocal about these issues and it's representative of the way a lot of people feel. If you took it any other way, feel free to shoot me a PM.

I don't think we should pull a judge during the contest. But afterwards they should have a talkin to. And if the problem continues they should no longer be able to judge. After talking to people about this particular judge, I've been told both her and her husband are known bad judges who have been in trouble before. These types of judges need to go.
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