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KCBS Involvement

tduffy said:
When %75 of judges only judge 1-2 contests a year there is no data that can be relied on. And if there was, what's the goal? The creator of the current system says that it wasn't designed to eliminate TOD or TOA's. Then what's the purpose? What's the problem that this is supposed to be a solution to?


Anything is a better idea than seating by scoring average. The southwest shuffle was still better than that.


The issue is a small handful of ****ty judges. We had one last weekend in montana. Some lady that had declared herself the best outdoor cook in the country and everyone else's bbq sucked, wrote everyone worthless comment cards and gave us bad scores. Granted it didn't matter, there were only 4 tables but rest assured, this idiot will be judging again.
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We got 2 comment cards, and neither of them seemed to make much sense. Don't know which table she was (I'm guessing your pork table?). I don't have the scoresheets here, I'll have to look later.

If it's the same as our chicken table, that was the worst one.
 
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midwest_kc said:
We got 2 comment cards, and neither of them seemed to make much sense. Don't know which table she was (I'm guessing your pork table?). I don't have the scoresheets here, I'll have to look later.

If it's the same as our chicken table, that was the worst one.
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My bet is she was on table 315.
 
If all judges played by the same mentality when it came to judging (i.e. starting at a 7 and going up or starting at a 9 and going down), then it wouldn't matter what the seating program was. You can't control taste buds or the quality of the entry that hits a given table on any given day, but if everyone played by the same set of procedures or best practices, then you provide the best possible outcome for all teams to be judged equally. When a judge tells a cook after a contest that they will never give a team a perfect score if there are only 6 pieces of chicken are in a box, then that is a problem and that is a judge playing by a different set of rules.
 
manmeatbbq said:
If all judges played by the same mentality when it came to judging (i.e. starting at a 7 and going up or starting at a 9 and going down), then it wouldn't matter what the seating program was. You can't control taste buds or the quality of the entry that hits a given table on any given day, but if everyone played by the same set of procedures or best practices, then you provide the best possible outcome for all teams to be judged equally. When a judge tells a cook after a contest that they will never give a team a perfect score if there are only 6 pieces of chicken are in a box, then that is a problem and that is a judge playing by a different set of rules.
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^^ This ^^
The biggest issue in KCBS judging is there is no accountability or consequences for breaking the judging rules / guidelines.
 
manmeatbbq said:
If all judges played by the same mentality when it came to judging (i.e. starting at a 7 and going up or starting at a 9 and going down), then it wouldn't matter what the seating program was. You can't control taste buds or the quality of the entry that hits a given table on any given day, but if everyone played by the same set of procedures or best practices, then you provide the best possible outcome for all teams to be judged equally. When a judge tells a cook after a contest that they will never give a team a perfect score if there are only 6 pieces of chicken are in a box, then that is a problem and that is a judge playing by a different set of rules.
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...... or a judge that tells you they never have or never will give anyone a 9. Heard it more than once.
 
tduffy said:
...... or a judge that tells you they never have or never will give anyone a 9. Heard it more than once.
Click to expand...

Agreed. This is the problem with judging, not some seating program. Re-certification of judges would be a great start. However, KCBS has to come out with a list of FAQs for judging classes, so that all the instructors of judging classes answer those very commonly asked questions the same.

You will still get judges that say they will never give someone a 9, and when that happens, KCBS needs to make sure they revoke their judging certification.
 
tduffy said:
...... or a judge that tells you they never have or never will give anyone a 9. Heard it more than once.
Click to expand...


If you hear that at a contest I'm Repping, I would appreciate you telling me. Except in Gettysburg, you're on your own there. lol
 
tduffy said:
When %75 of judges only judge 1-2 contests a year there is no data that can be relied on. And if there was, what's the goal? The creator of the current system says that it wasn't designed to eliminate TOD or TOA's. Then what's the purpose? What's the problem that this is supposed to be a solution to?


Anything is a better idea than seating by scoring average. The southwest shuffle was still better than that.


The issue is a small handful of ****ty judges. We had one last weekend in montana. Some lady that had declared herself the best outdoor cook in the country and everyone else's bbq sucked, wrote everyone worthless comment cards and gave us bad scores. Granted it didn't matter, there were only 4 tables but rest assured, this idiot will be judging again.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming you were judging since you can report with such clarity.
Why would you not call the Rep over explain what she said and request her removal? It (Shi**y judges) can change but it will take an effort instead of just shaking your head and posting stories.
Ed
 
ModelMaker said:
I'm assuming you were judging since you can report with such clarity.
Why would you not call the Rep over explain what she said and request her removal? It (Shi**y judges) can change but it will take an effort instead of just shaking your head and posting stories.
Ed
Click to expand...

If it's the individual I'm thinking of, she was wandering around Friday and then after judging Saturday telling people herself. I didn't realize she was a judge until Saturday afternoon, just thought she was someone talking herself up on Friday.
 
ModelMaker said:
I'm assuming you were judging since you can report with such clarity.
Why would you not call the Rep over explain what she said and request her removal? It (Shi**y judges) can change but it will take an effort instead of just shaking your head and posting stories.
Ed
Click to expand...
Nope, it was overheard in the cooks area after judging was completed. What as a cook am I supposed to do to "take an effort" instead of "posting stories" of what we hear and are told?
 
manmeatbbq said:
Agreed. This is the problem with judging, not some seating program. Re-certification of judges would be a great start. However, KCBS has to come out with a list of FAQs for judging classes, so that all the instructors of judging classes answer those very commonly asked questions the same.

You will still get judges that say they will never give someone a 9, and when that happens, KCBS needs to make sure they revoke their judging certification.
Click to expand...

Current CBJ's can audit any Judges Class for content at no charge, but may not be able to actually sample meats. Earlier this year I volunteered to help with building boxes and table captain for the hands-on judging portion of a CBJ class. But I sat-in on the first half of the class just as a refresher for myself. The Reps reviewed the 2019 Rules, the Judges Handbook, had a Power Point (or .pdf) presentation which followed the Handbook, they had notes, and they paused for questions from the new Judges, and also paused to ask the Judges questions. There was a table set-up with 8 or 9 boxes for a garnish quiz which was graded and then discussed by the class.

During the second half of the class the Table Captains could only announce numbers, present for appearance, pass the boxes along for taste and tenderness judging, and collect the boxes..... we were instructed to answer NO questions, or volunteer any information. All questions were fielded by the Reps and then discussed with the class as a whole.

I noticed Monday that the CBJ Continuing Education Refresher Test is now on the revamped website, so I took it. The MCBJ Practice Test had not launched yet. The test is auto scoring, and the instructions say your score AND any missed questions will be emailed to you. I got my score, and I did miss a couple of questions, but the email did not list the missed questions so hopefully this is one of the small things they are working out. If you login to the Member section of KCBS, then go to Judges Portal you can see your contest score history and also the date and score of the practice tests. These are a good idea to take annually.

So, it seems there is standardization of the CBJ classes. Could there be more? Or more in depth? Likely so, but what is a good start? I would like to see "KCBS approved" training videos in the members section of the site. Maybe a lecture or interview format. And maybe sample tests with photographs would be helpful.
 
thirdeye said:
Current CBJ's can audit any Judges Class for content at no charge, but may not be able to actually sample meats. Earlier this year I volunteered to help with building boxes and table captain for the hands-on judging portion of a CBJ class. But I sat-in on the first half of the class just as a refresher for myself. The Reps reviewed the 2019 Rules, the Judges Handbook, had a Power Point (or .pdf) presentation which followed the Handbook, they had notes, and they paused for questions from the new Judges, and also paused to ask the Judges questions. There was a table set-up with 8 or 9 boxes for a garnish quiz which was graded and then discussed by the class.

During the second half of the class the Table Captains could only announce numbers, present for appearance, pass the boxes along for taste and tenderness judging, and collect the boxes..... we were instructed to answer NO questions, or volunteer any information. All questions were fielded by the Reps and then discussed with the class as a whole.

I noticed Monday that the CBJ Continuing Education Refresher Test is now on the revamped website, so I took it. The MCBJ Practice Test had not launched yet. The test is auto scoring, and the instructions say your score AND any missed questions will be emailed to you. I got my score, and I did miss a couple of questions, but the email did not list the missed questions so hopefully this is one of the small things they are working out. If you login to the Member section of KCBS, then go to Judges Portal you can see your contest score history and also the date and score of the practice tests. These are a good idea to take annually.

So, it seems there is standardization of the CBJ classes. Could there be more? Or more in depth? Likely so, but what is a good start? I would like to see "KCBS approved" training videos in the members section of the site. Maybe a lecture or interview format. And maybe sample tests with photographs would be helpful.
Click to expand...


I definitely think this is a great start. However, I do think every judge should have a date of last certification and be required to re-certify on a set basis, whether it be every 2 years or whatever. If their certification date is beyond that, then they aren't a certified judge, which would tend to keep them from judging many contests. I don't know that a complete online re-certification will cure some judges, but it definitely can't hurt as a start.

Where the training breaks down most of the time is when an instructor provides their opinion as answers to some questions. Removing this opinion from the instructor is the challenge that KCBS has to help level the playing field. Again, you can't change taste buds or the quality of the turn-in, but you can at least make sure all the judges are starting from the same frame of mind, or framework, when it comes to scoring. This, I think, is what all the cooks are really looking for.
 
manmeatbbq said:
I definitely think this is a great start. However, I do think every judge should have a date of last certification and be required to re-certify on a set basis, whether it be every 2 years or whatever. If their certification date is beyond that, then they aren't a certified judge, which would tend to keep them from judging many contests. I don't know that a complete online re-certification will cure some judges, but it definitely can't hurt as a start.

Where the training breaks down most of the time is when an instructor provides their opinion as answers to some questions. Removing this opinion from the instructor is the challenge that KCBS has to help level the playing field. Again, you can't change taste buds or the quality of the turn-in, but you can at least make sure all the judges are starting from the same frame of mind, or framework, when it comes to scoring. This, I think, is what all the cooks are really looking for.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Honestly, that's why I think that the bulk of the training should be online. That's the only way to control the training, and control the information given to judges.
 
manmeatbbq said:
I definitely think this is a great start. However, I do think every judge should have a date of last certification and be required to re-certify on a set basis, whether it be every 2 years or whatever. If their certification date is beyond that, then they aren't a certified judge, which would tend to keep them from judging many contests.
Click to expand...
This really needs to happen along with some type of closed book certification test. Think about this If you are a CBJ and become a KCBS life member you are a valid CBJ forever.
 
tduffy said:
Nope, it was overheard in the cooks area after judging was completed. What as a cook am I supposed to do to "take an effort" instead of "posting stories" of what we hear and are told?
Click to expand...


It would be hard to demand action on something that was not witnessed by yourself. This could just as easily have been mostly opinion.
In your case you could have asked the source what table and seat this person was seated at and exactly what was said. Better yet bring the complainant and Rep together ASAP and require the Rep to take action.
You can always do something.
Ed
 
ModelMaker said:
It would be hard to demand action on something that was not witnessed by yourself. This could just as easily have been mostly opinion.
In your case you could have asked the source what table and seat this person was seated at and exactly what was said. Better yet bring the complainant and Rep together ASAP and require the Rep to take action.
You can always do something.
Ed
Click to expand...
I guess the junk scores and comment cards that several teams got from the same judge on one particular table I guess was just heresay and mostly opinion then........ got it.



How the hell do I require the rep to take action? What are they going to do about it? They didn't do anything when it was clearly obvious the judge wasn't scoring with the rest of the table?
 
tduffy said:
I guess the junk scores and comment cards that several teams got from the same judge on one particular table I guess was just heresay and mostly opinion then........ got it.



How the hell do I require the rep to take action? What are they going to do about it? They didn't do anything when it was clearly obvious the judge wasn't scoring with the rest of the table?
Click to expand...




As you're aware, the reps have had their hands tied for quite a while as concerns the matter of addressing judges during/between scoring. This should be changed, but it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.


Personally, I have been talked to on multiple occasions by reps early in my judging "career", and believe it should be allowed to continue. When I would write a low score, I assumed that the rep would come over to speak with me, and I sure as hell better have a good explanation and a comment card ready for them. How is this a bad thing?


If I run for (and get elected) to the Board in 2020, my only platform issue will be the immediate implementation of a real-time judge correction directive ...


SHAME-420x500.jpg
 
If a Rep counsels a judge, and their scoring changes every entry that lands on that table subsequent to said counseling has an advantage. If nothing is said, until after judging is complete each team had the same opportunity to land on that table.

If you are going to be consistent, and want Rep intervention during judging for the outlier you need to get on board with the mystical and magical judge seating program:)
 
Jorge said:
If you are going to be consistent, and want Rep intervention during judging for the outlier you need to get on board with the mystical and magical judge seating program:)
Click to expand...
What does that judge seating program have anything to do with calling out ****ty judges?
 
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