$60k to research Making a smoker

BadVolf · 09-26-2020, 06:41 PM

Okay, so the topic is a little confusing, so let me explain... I am going to build a smoker, I am in Russia and we don't have a lot of choices here for commercially bought. To ship one here, it's going to cost nearly $8000 just for the shipping. And so, with my engineering experience, I have decided to make my own. The first think I needed to do was to decide on a design. Verticle? Horizontal? Barrel? Standard or Reverse Flow? And, so I used my $60,000 work software (used to model the internal combustion of rocket engines, aircraft, etc...) and to look at several existing designs and was shocked at what I found out.

In the end, I ran 1000 different laminar flow/turbulent flow simulations to get what I think will be the prefect shape that addresses the problems and benefits of horizontal smokers, both standard and reverse flow. This will be reverse flow but with a completely different body shape. Here's what I learned:

Traditional smokers have less problems with "dirty" smoke but don't cook as evenly. Why: The laminar flow is quick, evacuating the heat from the smoker faster and also some of the cooler smoke. But there isn't much turbulence so you get uneven cooking. Also, the end where the exhaust is... the air is accelerated as it enters the exhaust, and it creates a funky channel of air that isn't great for cooking. Picture water going through clear funnel.

Photo Here

Reverse flow cookers are different... a lot of turbulence but not much laminar flow. This is what causes the dirty smoke. Again, you have that problem with that round exhaust.

Photo Here
But, you can see why in a traditional smoker, that fast moving air is more beneficial for evacuating the dirty smoke:

Photo Here
And so, Have come up with a new design, and I would like to find someone to help me test and make it. It will require someone with a fabrication shop that has a laser cutter and hydraulic press.

One of the most important things I learned in the reverse flow smoker is that the length of the buffer plate is absolutely critical. By altering the length, you can get the air to move faster so that it behaves more like a traditional smoker while keeping the smoke turbulence and even heating benefits of a reverse flow. So, if anyone wants to help with my experiment, let me know!

Note: I posted photos but they aren't showing up so I also included links to the photos.

Stlsportster · 09-26-2020, 06:50 PM

Question 1. Have you looked at Feldon’s calculator?

http://www.feldoncentral.com/bbqcalculator.html

Or all the analysis from scratch?

BadVolf · 09-26-2020, 07:24 PM

I did look at it, but it's very generic and not really useful unless you are going to build a traditional smoker. It's basically computing how much volume for the heating chamber will be required for heating the smoking chamber. I do like that it gives the opening size of the reverse flow chamber, but it is calculating the same volume as the opening for the firebox exit. Not helpful if you want to alter the airflow.

Also, it's using a cylinder (barrel) shape in the calculations. While it's readily available and cheap to make, it's not very efficient. or instance, you have that 90 degree angle where the side meets the cylinder. Gasses and liquids don't like angles very much. It induces a LOT of turbulence from the beginning, which is the biggest problem for traditional reverse flow designs. THis is the primary reason you get dirty smoke.

MisterChrister · 09-26-2020, 07:50 PM

I can't possibly offer any insight, but your approach is very intriguing; best luck in your endeavors!

tom b · 09-26-2020, 08:28 PM

This has my interest, I'll be following along

BadVolf · 09-26-2020, 08:32 PM

here's one of the more interesting models I did, a vertically elongated hexagonal variant...
See Photo Here

You see the distribution and circulation is very nice, but it fell apart when modeling from the top and isometric...
See Photo Here

The problem, if you can't see it, is that the smoke is pulled away at the top because that's where the hottest air current is. It's a shame, because it was a great design, ergonomically. when the door opened, the door also opened on the top where you wouldn't bump your head. That's one reason I LOVE the drum style cookers. But I decided I would ONLY focus on even convection and circulation of the smoke and heat. In the end, I think this last design (again, after over a thousand models) is going to be the winner. It looks a bit unconventional... but I'll share a sneak peak...
Photo Here
and
Photo Here
As you can see, exhaust shape, position and shape of the exit chamber plays a HUGE part in the higher velocity, smooth laminar flow of the air.
Photo Here

The last photo is my final design, which will impart a smoke vortex inside for almost absolute distribution of heat and smoke. It's a heavy bastard though... weighing in at 1400 lbs (that includes 1mm thick stainless steel panels that house 20mm thick ceramic fiber insulating blankets to make it absolutely efficient as possible.

Stlsportster · 09-26-2020, 08:35 PM

Fascinating stuff. Can’t wait to see where you go with this....

However. If you’re doing the design with an empty smoker you’re not considering the impact of racks, food, shapes of spatchcock chickens and pork loin and aluminum half pans.

Won’t all that impact air flow as well?

Hoss · 09-26-2020, 08:37 PM

I wish I could help but I sold my plasma cutter and presses to raise money to send to a Nigerian Prince,who in return will transfer $24 million USA dollars to my account,of which I am entitled to 99% of proceeds.Once the transaction is complete,I may be interested in another investment.Just funning.I mean no disrespect to anyone.Good luck with your endeavor.

BadVolf · 09-26-2020, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stlsportster

Fascinating stuff. Can’t wait to see where you go with this....

However. If you’re doing the design with an empty smoker you’re not considering the impact of racks, food, shapes of spatchcock chickens and pork loin and aluminum half pans.

Won’t all that impact air flow as well?

Yes of course, which is my in the more advanced models you can see the racks. I also modeled briskets and chickens. I am not at the office so I can't share you the photos. But here's one with the racks:
Model with Racks

BadVolf · 09-26-2020, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoss

I wish I could help but I sold my plasma cutter and presses to raise money to send to a Nigerian Prince,who in return will transfer $24 million USA dollars to my account,of which I am entitled to 99% of proceeds.Once the transaction is complete,I may be interested in another investment.Just funning.I mean no disrespect to anyone.Good luck with your endeavor.

HAHAHA.. but I'm not looking for an investor. Just someone to build it and test it.

PS - I hope the Nigerian prince keeps his word.

Hoss · 09-26-2020, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadVolf

HAHAHA.. but I'm not looking for an investor. Just someone to build it and test it.

PS - I hope the Nigerian prince keeps his word.

It does look very interesting.I wish you the best.

Mike in Roseville · 09-26-2020, 09:12 PM

Aren’t there a few high school ag/welding programs that build smokers as projects? That might be a possibility?

WilliamKY · 09-26-2020, 09:15 PM

It certainly looks like you have done your homework. Are there no folks in Russia willing to invest? If not I would think BBQ is a virgin cooking style in Russia. Maybe seek out some local investors and you might create a craze and goldmine. Good luck.

luv2smoke · 09-26-2020, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stlsportster

Question 1. Have you looked at Feldon’s calculator?

http://www.feldoncentral.com/bbqcalculator.html

Or all the analysis from scratch?

This guy appears to be way beyond Feldon's calculator.
I'm going to keep my on this thread as this looks like it could get interesting.

PullinPork · 09-26-2020, 09:46 PM

Looks fascinating, wonder why it hasn’t been done before.
Maybe Shirley, et al don’t have access to CFD software?
Hope your manager is into BBQ...

09-26-2020, 06:41 PM	#1
BadVolf Is lookin for wood to cook with. Join Date: 09-22-20 Location: Florida -> Moscow Name/Nickname : BadVolf	$60k to research Making a smoker Okay, so the topic is a little confusing, so let me explain... I am going to build a smoker, I am in Russia and we don't have a lot of choices here for commercially bought. To ship one here, it's going to cost nearly $8000 just for the shipping. And so, with my engineering experience, I have decided to make my own. The first think I needed to do was to decide on a design. Verticle? Horizontal? Barrel? Standard or Reverse Flow? And, so I used my $60,000 work software (used to model the internal combustion of rocket engines, aircraft, etc...) and to look at several existing designs and was shocked at what I found out. In the end, I ran 1000 different laminar flow/turbulent flow simulations to get what I think will be the prefect shape that addresses the problems and benefits of horizontal smokers, both standard and reverse flow. This will be reverse flow but with a completely different body shape. Here's what I learned: Traditional smokers have less problems with "dirty" smoke but don't cook as evenly. Why: The laminar flow is quick, evacuating the heat from the smoker faster and also some of the cooler smoke. But there isn't much turbulence so you get uneven cooking. Also, the end where the exhaust is... the air is accelerated as it enters the exhaust, and it creates a funky channel of air that isn't great for cooking. Picture water going through clear funnel. Photo Here Reverse flow cookers are different... a lot of turbulence but not much laminar flow. This is what causes the dirty smoke. Again, you have that problem with that round exhaust. Photo Here But, you can see why in a traditional smoker, that fast moving air is more beneficial for evacuating the dirty smoke: Photo Here And so, Have come up with a new design, and I would like to find someone to help me test and make it. It will require someone with a fabrication shop that has a laser cutter and hydraulic press. One of the most important things I learned in the reverse flow smoker is that the length of the buffer plate is absolutely critical. By altering the length, you can get the air to move faster so that it behaves more like a traditional smoker while keeping the smoke turbulence and even heating benefits of a reverse flow. So, if anyone wants to help with my experiment, let me know! Note: I posted photos but they aren't showing up so I also included links to the photos.
	1 members found this post helpful.

09-26-2020, 07:24 PM	#3
BadVolf Is lookin for wood to cook with. Join Date: 09-22-20 Location: Florida -> Moscow Name/Nickname : BadVolf	I did look at it, but it's very generic and not really useful unless you are going to build a traditional smoker. It's basically computing how much volume for the heating chamber will be required for heating the smoking chamber. I do like that it gives the opening size of the reverse flow chamber, but it is calculating the same volume as the opening for the firebox exit. Not helpful if you want to alter the airflow. Also, it's using a cylinder (barrel) shape in the calculations. While it's readily available and cheap to make, it's not very efficient. or instance, you have that 90 degree angle where the side meets the cylinder. Gasses and liquids don't like angles very much. It induces a LOT of turbulence from the beginning, which is the biggest problem for traditional reverse flow designs. THis is the primary reason you get dirty smoke. Last edited by BadVolf; 09-26-2020 at 07:30 PM..

09-26-2020, 07:50 PM	#4
MisterChrister Quintessential Chatty Farker Join Date: 04-28-12 Location: Wis-con-sin	I can't possibly offer any insight, but your approach is very intriguing; best luck in your endeavors! __________________ Kettleheads Anonymous Charter Member

09-26-2020, 08:28 PM	#5
tom b somebody shut me the fark up. Join Date: 10-12-15 Location: Temecula, CA	This has my interest, I'll be following along __________________ LSG 24x48 offset, MAK 2 Star General, Built in Santa Maria Pit, Weber Performer Deluxe 22 w/CB Rotisserie, Blackstone Pizza Oven, WGA, A PBC A 26'er AND A Jumbo Joe

09-26-2020, 09:15 PM	#13
WilliamKY is Blowin Smoke! Join Date: 02-18-18 Location: Louisville,KY Name/Nickname : William	It certainly looks like you have done your homework. Are there no folks in Russia willing to invest? If not I would think BBQ is a virgin cooking style in Russia. Maybe seek out some local investors and you might create a craze and goldmine. Good luck. __________________ Shirley Vertical + Fire Pit Pit Boss 700 Weber 28 griddle Weber 26 WGA Old Smokey Electric. Go Cards!

09-26-2020, 06:50 PM	#2
Stlsportster Babbling Farker Join Date: 08-09-16 Location: Random Point In Time and Space Name/Nickname : Parental Assigned Label	Question 1. Have you looked at Feldon’s calculator? http://www.feldoncentral.com/bbqcalculator.html Or all the analysis from scratch?

09-26-2020, 08:32 PM	#6
BadVolf Is lookin for wood to cook with. Join Date: 09-22-20 Location: Florida -> Moscow Name/Nickname : BadVolf	here's one of the more interesting models I did, a vertically elongated hexagonal variant... See Photo Here You see the distribution and circulation is very nice, but it fell apart when modeling from the top and isometric... See Photo Here The problem, if you can't see it, is that the smoke is pulled away at the top because that's where the hottest air current is. It's a shame, because it was a great design, ergonomically. when the door opened, the door also opened on the top where you wouldn't bump your head. That's one reason I LOVE the drum style cookers. But I decided I would ONLY focus on even convection and circulation of the smoke and heat. In the end, I think this last design (again, after over a thousand models) is going to be the winner. It looks a bit unconventional... but I'll share a sneak peak... Photo Here and Photo Here As you can see, exhaust shape, position and shape of the exit chamber plays a HUGE part in the higher velocity, smooth laminar flow of the air. Photo Here The last photo is my final design, which will impart a smoke vortex inside for almost absolute distribution of heat and smoke. It's a heavy bastard though... weighing in at 1400 lbs (that includes 1mm thick stainless steel panels that house 20mm thick ceramic fiber insulating blankets to make it absolutely efficient as possible.

09-26-2020, 08:35 PM	#7
Stlsportster Babbling Farker Join Date: 08-09-16 Location: Random Point In Time and Space Name/Nickname : Parental Assigned Label	Fascinating stuff. Can’t wait to see where you go with this.... However. If you’re doing the design with an empty smoker you’re not considering the impact of racks, food, shapes of spatchcock chickens and pork loin and aluminum half pans. Won’t all that impact air flow as well?

09-26-2020, 08:37 PM	#8
Hoss Quintessential Chatty Farker Join Date: 12-31-09 Location: Hernando,MS	I wish I could help but I sold my plasma cutter and presses to raise money to send to a Nigerian Prince,who in return will transfer $24 million USA dollars to my account,of which I am entitled to 99% of proceeds.Once the transaction is complete,I may be interested in another investment.Just funning.I mean no disrespect to anyone.Good luck with your endeavor.

09-26-2020, 09:12 PM	#12
Mike in Roseville Babbling Farker Join Date: 08-31-18 Location: Location, Location. Name/Nickname : Mike	Aren’t there a few high school ag/welding programs that build smokers as projects? That might be a possibility?

09-26-2020, 09:46 PM	#15
PullinPork Full Fledged Farker Join Date: 03-11-20 Location: San Jose CA Name/Nickname : Chuck	Looks fascinating, wonder why it hasn’t been done before. Maybe Shirley, et al don’t have access to CFD software? Hope your manager is into BBQ... __________________ MAK 2 Star, WSM 18.5, Weber Summit S-670 gasser