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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind. |
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05-30-2010, 05:35 PM | #16 |
Got Wood.
Join Date: 03-15-10
Location: Central Illinois
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I have started to see more teams submit varied samples of chicken and pork over the last two years. I agree that if it is in the box, it should be sampled and scored.
Although I tend to average the scores, more often than not I give the same score to all pieces. I have not seen many boxes that have good and poor pieces in them. I think some direction from KCBS wouldn't hurt, but I have not seen widely varying product turned in very often. Laird CBJ |
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05-30-2010, 05:52 PM | #17 | |
somebody shut me the fark up.
Join Date: 05-10-06
Location: Overland Fark, KS
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Asshattatron Farkanaut, CGCFO Chief Galactic Crockpot Foil Officer Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Are you MOINK Certified? Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards! Don't forget about the Throwdown Thingies! The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club Duh. |
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05-30-2010, 07:14 PM | #18 | |
Knows what a fatty is.
Join Date: 04-25-10
Location: Olathe, KS
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1. It appears that instructors are not teaching the same thing(How to properly score a combo box... What is good BBQ...etc..) 2. Too much is left to judges discretion. We, as cooks, have to deal with personalities, egos etc. and not necessarily just make great BBQ as judging criteria is too loose. Combined together, these two items can lead to large inconsistencies, that go beyond combo-box judging. Combo box judging is only 1 discrepancy, but I believe the problem to be larger than this. Thanks for getting me back on track and keeping the thread focused. Dan D. |
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05-30-2010, 07:21 PM | #19 |
Full Fledged Farker
Join Date: 11-13-08
Location: Taylorsville, KY
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This is a good discussion, and I want to thank those who have recently taken classes and have helped educate me. I did audit a CBJ class last fall & the issue wasn't raised while I was in the room (I spent part of the class helping assemble sample boxes, which didn't include pulled and sliced and...)
To Ford, we used to get a yearly manual/pamphlet, but for whatever reason, it went by the wayside. I have searched the KCBS website and cannot find a download specifically for judges other than what is read on the CD before each comp. It would be extremely helpful to judges, old & new, if there was a yearly update in the Bullsheet, or mailed to us, or easily found on the website! (did find the pamphlet from 2001, too funny-it says if a judge gets too full or doesn't like a particular meat, they will bring in an alternate!) To Shark Guy, while this thread is about how to judge multiple varieties of one meat, I'd like to take a shot at why there can be such variation in scoring. Since you didn't say what meat it was, I'm going to use chicken thighs for my example. Appearance? Sooo many options, not identical, too identical, too much sauce, sauce too red, sauce too brown, sauce too orange, sauce too saucy Taste: could be one judge got the piece that the salt shaker went crazy on, or they don't like spicy, or they want it more spicy, they like more smoke, they don't like smoke...Texture/tenderness: please don't forget that the 6-legged chicken is a rare bird, so the texture/tenderness of the 6 samples of thighs will rarely be the same! I don't know how a cook could be sure how every entry should be scored without taking a bite out of each piece, and that's probably against the rules! I would love to be giving everyone 999s, but that just isn't possible-sometimes bad is bad. (And phooey! I just got reminded that I've only been a CBJ since August 2001, so I'm going on 9 years, not 10.)
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Master CBJ, CTC, Secretary of Domestic Tranquility |
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05-30-2010, 08:52 PM | #20 |
Knows what a fatty is.
Join Date: 04-25-10
Location: Olathe, KS
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[QUOTE=SaucyWench;1296667]
To Shark Guy, while this thread is about how to judge multiple varieties of one meat, I'd like to take a shot at why there can be such variation in scoring. Since you didn't say what meat it was, I'm going to use chicken thighs for my example. Appearance? Sooo many options, not identical, too identical, too much sauce, sauce too red, sauce too brown, sauce too orange, sauce too saucy Taste: could be one judge got the piece that the salt shaker went crazy on, or they don't like spicy, or they want it more spicy, they like more smoke, they don't like smoke...Texture/tenderness: please don't forget that the 6-legged chicken is a rare bird, so the texture/tenderness of the 6 samples of thighs will rarely be the same! I don't know how a cook could be sure how every entry should be scored without taking a bite out of each piece, and that's probably against the rules! QUOTE] Thanks. I understand and appreciate all that you are saying, and perhaps that is what makes KCBS so interesting. Things may change in the future, but in the meantime, my focus is to learn to cook the best BBQ I can, and hope for the best. Ultimately, even the pickiest judges can be pleased. We see it when many of the same teams are at the top week after week. Thanks to all for all the great information on this forum. |
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05-30-2010, 10:47 PM | #21 | |||
Full Fledged Farker
Join Date: 08-31-08
Location: Kansas City, MO
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1. A judge should try to sample each different type of meat in a box as long as it does not create a situation where a judge will not receive a piece of meat to score. This is pretty much the way it is already handled, and I have not heard any contradictory information to my first point. Still though, I think it needs to be on the CD. 2. When judging multiple cuts of meat from the same entry, the judge should...(and this is where they say either score the best piece, or use an aggregate.) The key here is that I really don't care which way it is. I will be just as happy doing it either way, but I think that the KCBS should first figure out how they want it handled and tell us. Then, if we as member judges disagree with their decision, we can have a much more tangible debate/discussion over that, but in the mean time, the cooks are being treated fairly which is not happening now. I appreciate your point of view, but in this I could not disagree more. The KCBS has not said how they wanted it handled. They have completely ignored the issue by saying that it is at the discresion of the individual judge. That is nothing but a cop-out in my opinion because, as I mentioned before, this is a PROCEDURAL matter. Issues such as this are exactly the sort of thing that the KCBS should be giving guidence on. Quote:
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When we go through judging class, we are given a book(at least I was) that was meant to give us everything we needed to know as judges. While I think the book is pretty good, it basically is a transcript of the CD. I think that this book needs to be expanded to deal with issues like the ones we are talking about here. I also think that this book should be available online as a downloadable PDF or something. Then, whenever changes are made to the procedures, the book can be updated, and an email sent to all CBJs, letting them know that they need to go to the website and download the new addition. Secondly, I think that there needs to be some continuing education requirements for judges. It is really the only way to make sure that everyone is on the same page. It could done entirely online. You could choose a subject you wanted to learn more about, and then go through a little online tutorial that ended in a short quiz...or maybe you get credits for going to or listening to the BOD meetings...something. I don't have all of the answers, but I imagine that there is some reasonable way for it to happen. Finally, there needs to be an open, accessible, and functional conduit by which issues raised by either cooks or judges are taken seriously and discussed fairly.(I am not saying for sure that there is not one, but if there is, I don't know about it.) None of this matters, however, if we don't somehow manage to convince the BOD that there are inconsistencies, and that these inconsistencies are simply unacceptable. I don't have an ax to grind with the BOD. I am sure that they are doing their very best to do what they think is right, but if we want the KCBS be the preeminent authority for BBQ in this country, the fact that we cant even seem to get our own house in order is frankly embarrassing.
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"Bacon is the gateway meat." - Chef Ryan Farr Carpe Lardum! Dark Horse BBQ Competition Team KCBS Master CBJ Certified Moink Baller Good One "Open Range" Smoker, WMS (Cirqa 1983), Rescued NB offset, Modified ECB, No-name Charcoal Grill, Perfect Flame Gasser, Weber 22.5" One Touch Silver |
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05-31-2010, 12:51 AM | #22 |
Quintessential Chatty Farker
Join Date: 11-12-06
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
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I judge each entry "as presented" by the cook. To me this means judging not to my own tastes, but did the cook achieve a good blend of flavors from the meat, spices, smoke, sauce, etc. If I'm supposed to go by this definition of "as presented" then I feel that I should judge the whole box, not just the "best" piece.
After all; you wouldn't want me to judge just the "worst" piece, would you?
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Dave Compton KCBS MasterCBJ # 22569 Member of the 100+ Contest Club Judge Number 6 competition BBQ team Possibly the only judge ever to get an award from a bunch of cooks UDS 075 UCB WSM and a bunch of other stuff. |
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Thanks from: ---> |
05-31-2010, 12:56 AM | #23 | |
Knows what a fatty is.
Join Date: 06-14-06
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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"If there are at least six of a type you are required to sample that type, but if there are less then six samples of a type you should only sample one of the of those types unless there are 3 or more types that have less then 6 samples but at least 4 samples of each type then each judge should sample 2 of the types." That doesn't even cover all situations. Obviously the way to rectify the potential rule is to require cooks to turn in at least enough for 6 judges of each type which would make the definition of type extremely important. And if you want a definitive policy as to whether the scores should be aggregated or only scoring the best you have to have a rule about sampling multiple types. I think we have enough rules as it is now. I'm all for having a definitive policy, but I don't see how you can do it without making things a lot more complicated. If you want to add something to the CD I'd suggest something along the lines of "If there are multiple types of meat presented, judges should use their common sense to try to split the samples as equally as possible" I think most judges are smart enough to figure out how to handle entries with multiple types and if they are consistent with how they judge them then I don't see it as a big problem. There are much bigger issues with judging then this. |
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05-31-2010, 06:34 PM | #24 | |
Is lookin for wood to cook with.
Join Date: 12-20-08
Location: New Gretna, NJ
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06-16-2010, 12:59 PM | #25 |
Is lookin for wood to cook with.
Join Date: 12-03-09
Location: Overland Park, KS
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As a judge (with table captain experience), I would give the entry an aggregate score and not just the best score of multiple cuts. This is a good thread and I have encountered the confusion that results from entries that do not have similar samples for each judge. I would say that it is not in the best interests of a team to confuse the judges.....we are already hopelessly confused already.
I am judging at the Sedalia, MO. event this weekend and I will ask some of the other judges what they think about this. |
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06-16-2010, 05:03 PM | #26 |
is One Chatty Farker
Join Date: 07-20-08
Location: Clive, IA
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I can't remember from my judging class, but do you have to eat one of each type in the box? If I did pulled, chunks and sliced pork do you have to try all 3?
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FEC-100 Right Handed, FEC-100 Left Handed, Large BGE x2, Mini BGE Buster Dog BBQ - [url]http://www.busterdogbbq.com[/url] |
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06-16-2010, 05:05 PM | #27 |
Is lookin for wood to cook with.
Join Date: 12-03-09
Location: Overland Park, KS
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If there is more than 1 sample "cut", I encourage the judges to take one of each. This usually just applies to brisket and pork.
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06-16-2010, 05:35 PM | #28 |
is Blowin Smoke!
Join Date: 08-08-07
Location: Cartersville, GA
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I'm surprised to here that some have been taught to "score the best piece of meat". Every CBJ class and Rep I have questioned on this issue here in Georgia has unequivocally said you should give an aggregate score for the entire entry.
My personal opinion is that it is wrong to exclude anything in the box from scoring. If we are to ignore the taste of a bad chicken wing because we like the thigh better, should we do the same for presentation, giving a box a nine because the thighs look perfect even though the wings are carbon black? Omitting any meat in the box from judging is problematic and incorrect as I see it. |
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06-16-2010, 06:22 PM | #29 | |
Full Fledged Farker
Join Date: 02-13-05
Location: New Jersey
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06-17-2010, 09:03 AM | #30 |
Full Fledged Farker
Join Date: 09-14-09
Location: Flemington, NJ
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Very interesting thread. Most of the topic has covered varying chicken pieces or pork pulled vs chunked, etc. How would you guys approach it if this was done with ribs? Say you open a box that contains half spares and half baby backs? You are not going to get 6 of each in a box so assuming 3 of each, do you reach for a spare if they are your preference over baby backs? Does this scenario change anything?
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