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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Old 05-30-2010, 05:35 PM   #16
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I have started to see more teams submit varied samples of chicken and pork over the last two years. I agree that if it is in the box, it should be sampled and scored.

Although I tend to average the scores, more often than not I give the same score to all pieces. I have not seen many boxes that have good and poor pieces in them.

I think some direction from KCBS wouldn't hurt, but I have not seen widely varying product turned in very often.

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Old 05-30-2010, 05:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharks_guy View Post
Great Thread!

I was quite surprised when I took my CBJ class that the interpretation of good BBQ and scoring was left up to the judges discretion as has been mentioned here. I also cooked in my first competition last weekend and got to see this discretion first hand as I had a box that got a 24(6,6,6) and a 36(9,9,9). I am sure you all see this all the time, but that disparity bugged me a lot. 12 points was the difference between 1st and 80th, so a few points can matter SIGNIFICANTLY. The judges need to be careful with their scoring.

I look forward to the day that KCBS takes a more active roll in training judges what is good, though I would guess they hesitate to do so, because then the evolution of competition BBQ may be limited as all judges will be looking for what was good as of the latest training class/material date. I would hope that they can find a nice middle ground that will allow for more consistent scoring yet still allow the flexibility that I assume they are trying to maintain.
I don't think the topic here is what DEFINES good BBQ, but simply how to score in the event more than one cut of meat is available for judges to sample.
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Old 05-30-2010, 07:14 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by bigabyte View Post
I don't think the topic here is what DEFINES good BBQ, but simply how to score in the event more than one cut of meat is available for judges to sample.
I agree, and I apologize I may have gone off topic a bit. Though I am still a newbie to this forum, my concerns are two fold:

1. It appears that instructors are not teaching the same thing(How to properly score a combo box... What is good BBQ...etc..)
2. Too much is left to judges discretion. We, as cooks, have to deal with personalities, egos etc. and not necessarily just make great BBQ as judging criteria is too loose.

Combined together, these two items can lead to large inconsistencies, that go beyond combo-box judging. Combo box judging is only 1 discrepancy, but I believe the problem to be larger than this.

Thanks for getting me back on track and keeping the thread focused.

Dan D.
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Old 05-30-2010, 07:21 PM   #19
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This is a good discussion, and I want to thank those who have recently taken classes and have helped educate me. I did audit a CBJ class last fall & the issue wasn't raised while I was in the room (I spent part of the class helping assemble sample boxes, which didn't include pulled and sliced and...)

To Ford, we used to get a yearly manual/pamphlet, but for whatever reason, it went by the wayside. I have searched the KCBS website and cannot find a download specifically for judges other than what is read on the CD before each comp. It would be extremely helpful to judges, old & new, if there was a yearly update in the Bullsheet, or mailed to us, or easily found on the website! (did find the pamphlet from 2001, too funny-it says if a judge gets too full or doesn't like a particular meat, they will bring in an alternate!)

To Shark Guy, while this thread is about how to judge multiple varieties of one meat, I'd like to take a shot at why there can be such variation in scoring. Since you didn't say what meat it was, I'm going to use chicken thighs for my example. Appearance? Sooo many options, not identical, too identical, too much sauce, sauce too red, sauce too brown, sauce too orange, sauce too saucy Taste: could be one judge got the piece that the salt shaker went crazy on, or they don't like spicy, or they want it more spicy, they like more smoke, they don't like smoke...Texture/tenderness: please don't forget that the 6-legged chicken is a rare bird, so the texture/tenderness of the 6 samples of thighs will rarely be the same! I don't know how a cook could be sure how every entry should be scored without taking a bite out of each piece, and that's probably against the rules!

I would love to be giving everyone 999s, but that just isn't possible-sometimes bad is bad.

(And phooey! I just got reminded that I've only been a CBJ since August 2001, so I'm going on 9 years, not 10.)
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Old 05-30-2010, 08:52 PM   #20
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[QUOTE=SaucyWench;1296667]
To Shark Guy, while this thread is about how to judge multiple varieties of one meat, I'd like to take a shot at why there can be such variation in scoring. Since you didn't say what meat it was, I'm going to use chicken thighs for my example. Appearance? Sooo many options, not identical, too identical, too much sauce, sauce too red, sauce too brown, sauce too orange, sauce too saucy Taste: could be one judge got the piece that the salt shaker went crazy on, or they don't like spicy, or they want it more spicy, they like more smoke, they don't like smoke...Texture/tenderness: please don't forget that the 6-legged chicken is a rare bird, so the texture/tenderness of the 6 samples of thighs will rarely be the same! I don't know how a cook could be sure how every entry should be scored without taking a bite out of each piece, and that's probably against the rules!

QUOTE]

Thanks. I understand and appreciate all that you are saying, and perhaps that is what makes KCBS so interesting. Things may change in the future, but in the meantime, my focus is to learn to cook the best BBQ I can, and hope for the best. Ultimately, even the pickiest judges can be pleased. We see it when many of the same teams are at the top week after week.

Thanks to all for all the great information on this forum.
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Old 05-30-2010, 10:47 PM   #21
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I think it is too complicated for a rule to be written about it. What if there are four thighs and 2 legs on a bed of pulled chicken? Does nobody average them, do 2 judges take a thigh, a leg, and some pulled and average those, the next 2 take a thigh and pulled and average those, and the last 2 just score the pulled, or does each judge take either a thigh or a leg and some pulled and average those? There are just too many options that can be put in a box.
I respectfully disagree. I do not think it would be complicated at all. IMHO, the rule needs to be two-fold...
1. A judge should try to sample each different type of meat in a box as long as it does not create a situation where a judge will not receive a piece of meat to score.
This is pretty much the way it is already handled, and I have not heard any contradictory information to my first point. Still though, I think it needs to be on the CD.
2. When judging multiple cuts of meat from the same entry, the judge should...(and this is where they say either score the best piece, or use an aggregate.)
The key here is that I really don't care which way it is. I will be just as happy doing it either way, but I think that the KCBS should first figure out how they want it handled and tell us. Then, if we as member judges disagree with their decision, we can have a much more tangible debate/discussion over that, but in the mean time, the cooks are being treated fairly which is not happening now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eurycea View Post
I think they have
I appreciate your point of view, but in this I could not disagree more. The KCBS has not said how they wanted it handled. They have completely ignored the issue by saying that it is at the discresion of the individual judge. That is nothing but a cop-out in my opinion because, as I mentioned before, this is a PROCEDURAL matter. Issues such as this are exactly the sort of thing that the KCBS should be giving guidence on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake Dogs View Post
> Since I was taught something different I emailed KCBS and asked what was right.
> The response I got was that it is up to each judge to decide. If that is the
> current policy then instructors and reps shouldn't be teaching something different.

Wow. Up to each judge to decide... And now wet get to the heart of the problem.
They have no clue there is a problem. That, or they want to embrace inconsistency.

Not good.
Ok, so the question then becomes...How to we get them to see that there IS an issue, and then to take it seriously. To be honest, apart from the few threads I have read here, I don't really know much about how things work(or don't) in the BOD. Does anyone have any good ideas as to the best process to get these ideas heard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake Dogs View Post
Talk about where KCBS
should spend the money, THIS is where they should spend the money. Every
CBJ should have/possess this book, without any exception. It should be their
judging bible. In it should be an exact "judges charging" section so that at ever
competition they're charged (ala. tasked) exactly the same.
I agree, but I think it needs to go even deeper than that.
When we go through judging class, we are given a book(at least I was) that was meant to give us everything we needed to know as judges. While I think the book is pretty good, it basically is a transcript of the CD. I think that this book needs to be expanded to deal with issues like the ones we are talking about here. I also think that this book should be available online as a downloadable PDF or something. Then, whenever changes are made to the procedures, the book can be updated, and an email sent to all CBJs, letting them know that they need to go to the website and download the new addition.

Secondly, I think that there needs to be some continuing education requirements for judges. It is really the only way to make sure that everyone is on the same page. It could done entirely online. You could choose a subject you wanted to learn more about, and then go through a little online tutorial that ended in a short quiz...or maybe you get credits for going to or listening to the BOD meetings...something. I don't have all of the answers, but I imagine that there is some reasonable way for it to happen.

Finally, there needs to be an open, accessible, and functional conduit by which issues raised by either cooks or judges are taken seriously and discussed fairly.(I am not saying for sure that there is not one, but if there is, I don't know about it.)

None of this matters, however, if we don't somehow manage to convince the BOD that there are inconsistencies, and that these inconsistencies are simply unacceptable. I don't have an ax to grind with the BOD. I am sure that they are doing their very best to do what they think is right, but if we want the KCBS be the preeminent authority for BBQ in this country, the fact that we cant even seem to get our own house in order is frankly embarrassing.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:51 AM   #22
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I judge each entry "as presented" by the cook. To me this means judging not to my own tastes, but did the cook achieve a good blend of flavors from the meat, spices, smoke, sauce, etc. If I'm supposed to go by this definition of "as presented" then I feel that I should judge the whole box, not just the "best" piece.


After all; you wouldn't want me to judge just the "worst" piece, would you?
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daedalus View Post
I respectfully disagree. I do not think it would be complicated at all. IMHO, the rule needs to be two-fold...
1. A judge should try to sample each different type of meat in a box as long as it does not create a situation where a judge will not receive a piece of meat to score.
This is pretty much the way it is already handled, and I have not heard any contradictory information to my first point. Still though, I think it needs to be on the CD.
So in the example I used the first 2 judges should take 3 types, the next 2 take 2 types, and the last 2 get 1 type - I think that is absurd. But even if that is the way you think it should be done your still going to have to come up with definitions of types. In chicken is each different piece a type or is it how its presented? In my example I think judges can figure out that they can choose a thigh or a leg and also get some pulled - but how do you write it as a rule?

"If there are at least six of a type you are required to sample that type, but if there are less then six samples of a type you should only sample one of the of those types unless there are 3 or more types that have less then 6 samples but at least 4 samples of each type then each judge should sample 2 of the types."

That doesn't even cover all situations. Obviously the way to rectify the potential rule is to require cooks to turn in at least enough for 6 judges of each type which would make the definition of type extremely important. And if you want a definitive policy as to whether the scores should be aggregated or only scoring the best you have to have a rule about sampling multiple types. I think we have enough rules as it is now.

I'm all for having a definitive policy, but I don't see how you can do it without making things a lot more complicated.

If you want to add something to the CD I'd suggest something along the lines of "If there are multiple types of meat presented, judges should use their common sense to try to split the samples as equally as possible"


I think most judges are smart enough to figure out how to handle entries with multiple types and if they are consistent with how they judge them then I don't see it as a big problem. There are much bigger issues with judging then this.
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Old 05-31-2010, 06:34 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Rookie'48 View Post
I judge each entry "as presented" by the cook. To me this means judging not to my own tastes, but did the cook achieve a good blend of flavors from the meat, spices, smoke, sauce, etc. If I'm supposed to go by this definition of "as presented" then I feel that I should judge the whole box, not just the "best" piece.


After all; you wouldn't want me to judge just the "worst" piece, would you?
I agree with this approach and this is essentially what was taught in the class that I took. If the team puts it in the box, they want to be judged on it as an overall turn in.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:59 PM   #25
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As a judge (with table captain experience), I would give the entry an aggregate score and not just the best score of multiple cuts. This is a good thread and I have encountered the confusion that results from entries that do not have similar samples for each judge. I would say that it is not in the best interests of a team to confuse the judges.....we are already hopelessly confused already.

I am judging at the Sedalia, MO. event this weekend and I will ask some of the other judges what they think about this.
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:03 PM   #26
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I can't remember from my judging class, but do you have to eat one of each type in the box? If I did pulled, chunks and sliced pork do you have to try all 3?
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:05 PM   #27
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If there is more than 1 sample "cut", I encourage the judges to take one of each. This usually just applies to brisket and pork.
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:35 PM   #28
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I'm surprised to here that some have been taught to "score the best piece of meat". Every CBJ class and Rep I have questioned on this issue here in Georgia has unequivocally said you should give an aggregate score for the entire entry.

My personal opinion is that it is wrong to exclude anything in the box from scoring. If we are to ignore the taste of a bad chicken wing because we like the thigh better, should we do the same for presentation, giving a box a nine because the thighs look perfect even though the wings are carbon black? Omitting any meat in the box from judging is problematic and incorrect as I see it.
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Old 06-16-2010, 06:22 PM   #29
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I'm surprised to here that some have been taught to "score the best piece of meat". Every CBJ class and Rep I have questioned on this issue here in Georgia has unequivocally said you should give an aggregate score for the entire entry.

My personal opinion is that it is wrong to exclude anything in the box from scoring. If we are to ignore the taste of a bad chicken wing because we like the thigh better, should we do the same for presentation, giving a box a nine because the thighs look perfect even though the wings are carbon black? Omitting any meat in the box from judging is problematic and incorrect as I see it.
Write to Ed Roith and get your clarification, he is in charge of the judges and instructors.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:03 AM   #30
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Very interesting thread. Most of the topic has covered varying chicken pieces or pork pulled vs chunked, etc. How would you guys approach it if this was done with ribs? Say you open a box that contains half spares and half baby backs? You are not going to get 6 of each in a box so assuming 3 of each, do you reach for a spare if they are your preference over baby backs? Does this scenario change anything?
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