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Q-talk *ON TOPIC ONLY* QUALITY ON TOPIC discussion of Backyard BBQ, grilling, equipment and outdoor cookin' . ** Other cooking techniques are welcomed for when your cookin' in the kitchen. Post your hints, tips, tricks & techniques, success, failures, but stay on topic and watch for that hijacking. |
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02-01-2013, 01:09 PM | #46 |
is Blowin Smoke!
Join Date: 08-13-08
Location: San Antonio TX
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I'm no mad bbq scientist but especially when kettle frying I've taken chicken to 180+ and still had it be juicy and tender. I wouldn't want to risk cooking chicken to 145 just to see if its more tender or juicy and end up contracting cooties or something like that.
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22.5 OTG, 18.5 SJP (modded), 14.5 SJS, Weber Q 100, TX Longhorn Camper grill TL 21 [URL="http://www.elcapoteranch.com"]www.elcapoteranch.com[/URL] [URL="http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/group.php?groupid=39"]ZERO[/URL] Club Member (2) Creator of: "The Great Chicken Sammich Debacle of 2010" |
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02-01-2013, 01:13 PM | #47 | |
Found some matches.
Join Date: 01-30-13
Location: Houston, Tx
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02-01-2013, 01:25 PM | #48 |
Found some matches.
Join Date: 01-30-13
Location: Houston, Tx
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This table of temperatures and times was taken from following USDA link.
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/...try_Tables.pdf This also is an informative link: http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/04/s...tml?ref=search |
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02-01-2013, 01:32 PM | #49 | |
somebody shut me the fark up.
Join Date: 05-10-06
Location: Overland Fark, KS
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Your statement about "cuts high in connective tissue being relatively tough compared to cuts low in connective tissue" is true both at lower temps and higher temps. Yes, it's true, you can take a low connective tissue piece of meat like a tri-tip or pork loin and (pardon the expression) "cook it like a brisket" and it will come out very tender, in fact, compared to the higher connective tissue pieces of meat it is even more tender. The same difference as when cooked to lower temps, i.e. a brisket flat cooked to 120 degrees internal is actually relatively tender, but not as tender as a tri-tip cooked to 120. By the same token, however, a brisket cooked until it is probe tender (180+ degrees) is similarly less tender than a tri-tip cooked until it is probe tender. Do a search for "like a brisket" and you will see that multiple brethren have proven this with multiple cuts of meat.
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Asshattatron Farkanaut, CGCFO Chief Galactic Crockpot Foil Officer Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Are you MOINK Certified? Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards! Don't forget about the Throwdown Thingies! The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club Duh. |
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02-01-2013, 01:39 PM | #50 |
somebody shut me the fark up.
Join Date: 05-10-06
Location: Overland Fark, KS
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Actually, here's a good link to help you get started on temps and tenderness for both low connective and high connective pieces of meat, which I referenced above! Feel free to cotnribute more to all that if you wish.
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=124163
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Asshattatron Farkanaut, CGCFO Chief Galactic Crockpot Foil Officer Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Are you MOINK Certified? Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards! Don't forget about the Throwdown Thingies! The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club Duh. |
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02-01-2013, 01:46 PM | #51 |
somebody shut me the fark up.
Join Date: 05-10-06
Location: Overland Fark, KS
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All things said, however, I'm intrigued by the idea that a longer hold at a 145 temp may cause the meat to become tender. I'm not discounting it. I'm just saying I am skeptical is all. The thing I am most skeptical of is whether a simple 10 minute hold is enough to break it down to being tender. It's long enough to kill bacteria, obviously, but it's another thing entirely to say that is the time needed to make a piece of meat that should be tougher than normal at that temp break down to being tender in just 10 minutes. Thus why I question it.
I've never been one to blindly follow. I've also always been quite open to the idea of being wrong, so long as someone can back it up. Usually folks can't back it up and it has to be "tried". I'm not all that keen about the idea of trying it, but after all of the safety discussions my primary concerns have been alleviated. We also need to know for sure that Harry holds the chicken at 145 as opposed to simly wrapping it at 145 and continuing to cook it. The meat may still be rising in temp, changing things entirely. Thus some clarification is needed.
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Asshattatron Farkanaut, CGCFO Chief Galactic Crockpot Foil Officer Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Are you MOINK Certified? Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards! Don't forget about the Throwdown Thingies! The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club Duh. |
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02-01-2013, 01:48 PM | #52 |
Found some matches.
Join Date: 01-30-13
Location: Houston, Tx
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That's interesting, I'll definitely check out the links. I'm wondering if that's because Tri-tip, while lower in connective tissue, has enough that if cooked to high enough temperature, there is enough to break down and tenderize. It's definitely higher in connective tissue than rib-eye and strip steak. I would have a hard time believing that you could cook a rib roast "like a brisket"... but what do I know? Thanks for the links!
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02-01-2013, 01:53 PM | #53 | |
Found some matches.
Join Date: 01-30-13
Location: Houston, Tx
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02-01-2013, 04:00 PM | #54 | |
somebody shut me the fark up.
Join Date: 05-10-06
Location: Overland Fark, KS
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I love threads like this.
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Asshattatron Farkanaut, CGCFO Chief Galactic Crockpot Foil Officer Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Are you MOINK Certified? Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards! Don't forget about the Throwdown Thingies! The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club Duh. |
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02-01-2013, 05:36 PM | #55 |
Knows what a fatty is.
Join Date: 06-23-11
Location: Olney, MD
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I tweeted Harry telling him about this thred and asking him this question. Here is his response
"Yes, TIME and TEMP. Salmonella dies 100% at 118 degrees. All the 15 common pathogens die between 105-129 based on a timescale. I blame if on Dr. Vijay Juneja, the USDA scientist who published his findings used to establish the FDA tables! LOL :-)"
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- Jim, Olney MD |
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02-01-2013, 06:03 PM | #56 | |
Moderator
Join Date: 12-09-04
Location: Wandering, but not lost
Name/Nickname : Captain Ron
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Also, is he doing this for thighs and breasts? Finally, any idea how he handles the skin?
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"Ron Rico, Boss. You can call me Captain Ron..." Naked Fatties Rock! PKGo X 2/PK360/Weber Q1000/Blackstone Camping Griddle/Pit Boss Pro Series 850 |
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02-01-2013, 06:11 PM | #57 |
is One Chatty Farker
Join Date: 04-08-10
Location: Elk Creek, KY
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I wouldn't eat it or serve to anyone else
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02-01-2013, 06:18 PM | #58 |
somebody shut me the fark up.
Join Date: 01-26-10
Location: Virginia
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The only time I refused to sample an entry while judging was an under cooked chicken thigh. If I don't think it's done, it won't go in my mouth. The first requirement of a cooking contest is that the food actually be cooked.
When I cook chicken, I like to cook it to the tenderness I desire and that never happens at 145* internal. So, whatever.
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Operation BBQ Relief Founding Member - I am Obsessive Compulsive about BBQ. Google it. |
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02-02-2013, 12:27 AM | #59 |
is one Smokin' Farker
Join Date: 12-14-12
Location: Sydney NSW
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I am surprised at both the knowledge demonstrated and on the other side head in sand ignorance. Yes salmonella can be eliminated at lower than 160F, cooking at 145F does mean slimy or tough product (the opposite in fact). Yes I do BBQ products above 145f at time and I do enjoy crisp skins and burnt bits on my marinated chicken things. One just needs an open mind.
The French charcuttie chefs have been sell chicken products cooked sous vide at temperatures no more than 145f for decades. They do not want to lose moisture and money by drying products. I cook chicken & turkey breasts at 144F and they are moist with a fantastic texture. I provide below an extract from Douglas Baldwin - he is a highly regarded food scientist. A google search on him will produce a bunch of interesting information. From Douglas Balwin Traditionally, light poultry meat is cooked well-done (160°F/70°C to 175°F/80°C) for "food safety" reasons. When cooking chicken and turkey breasts sous vide, they can be cooked to a medium doneness (140°F/60°C to 150°F/65°C) while still being pasteurized for safety. Boneless Chicken or Turkey Breast Salt and Pepper Remove any skin from the breast and reserve for garnish or discard. Reserved skin can easily be crisped using either a salamander/broiler or with a blowtorch. If brining, place the poultry meat in a 5% salt water solution (50 grams per 1 liter) in the refrigerator for 30 minutes to 1 hour. (If tenderizing with a Jaccard, do so before brining.) Rinse and dry with paper towels. Then season with Kosher/sea salt and coarse ground pepper. Vacuum seal breasts (one per bag). The breasts may be frozen at this point until needed. To cook and pasteurize, place (thawed) breast in a 146°F (63.5°C) water bath for the times listed in Table 4.1. [After cooking, the breasts may be rapidly cooled in ice water (see Table 1.1) and frozen or refrigerated at below 38°F (3.3°C) for up to three to four weeks until needed.] Remove breast from plastic pouch and dry with a paper towel. The meat can then be served as is or browned slightly by using either a very hot pan (with just smoking oil) or a blowtorch. Serve immediately (garnished with crisped skin). Pasteurization Time for Poultry (starting at 41°F / 5°C and put in a 134.5–149°F / 57–65°C water bath) 134.5°F 136.5°F 138°F 140°F 142°F 143.5°F 145.5°F 147°F 149°F Thickness 57°C 58°C 59°C 60°C 61°C 62°C 63°C 64°C 65°C 5 mm 2¼ hr 1¾ hr 1¼ hr 45 min 35 min 25 min 18 min 15 min 13 min 10 mm 2¼ hr 1¾ hr 1¼ hr 55 min 40 min 35 min 30 min 25 min 20 min 15 mm 2½ hr 1¾ hr 1½ hr 1¼ hr 50 min 45 min 40 min 35 min 30 min 20 mm 2¾ hr 2 hr 1¾ hr 1¼ hr 1¼ hr 55 min 50 min 45 min 40 min 25 mm 3 hr 2¼ hr 2 hr 1½ hr 1½ hr 1¼ hr 1¼ hr 60 min 55 min 30 mm 3¼ hr 2¾ hr 2¼ hr 2 hr 1¾ hr 1½ hr 1½ hr 1¼ hr 1¼ hr 35 mm 3¾ hr 3 hr 2½ hr 2¼ hr 2 hr 1¾ hr 1¾ hr 1½ hr 1½ hr 40 mm 4 hr 3¼ hr 2¾ hr 2½ hr 2¼ hr 2 hr 2 hr 1¾ hr 1¾ hr 45 mm 4½ hr 3¾ hr 3¼ hr 3 hr 2¾ hr 2½ hr 2¼ hr 2 hr 2 hr 50 mm 4¾ hr 4¼ hr 3¾ hr 3¼ hr 3 hr 2¾ hr 2½ hr 2½ hr 2¼ hr 55 mm 5¼ hr 4½ hr 4 hr 3¾ hr 3½ hr 3¼ hr 3 hr 2¾ hr 2¾ hr 60 mm 5¾ hr 5 hr 4½ hr 4¼ hr 3¾ hr 3½ hr 3¼ hr 3¼ hr 3 hr 65 mm 6¼ hr 5½ hr 5 hr 4½ hr 4¼ hr 4 hr 3¾ hr 3½ hr 3¼ hr 70 mm 7 hr 6 hr 5½ hr 5 hr 4¾ hr 4½ hr 4¼ hr 4 hr 3¾ hr Table 4.1: Time required for at least a one million to one reduction in Listeria and a ten million to one reduction in Salmonella in poultry starting at 41°F (5°C). I calculated the D- and z-values using linear regression from (O’Bryan et al., 2006): for Salmonella I used D606.45 = 4.68 minutes and for Listeria I used D605.66 = 5.94 minutes. For my calculations I used a thermal diffusivity of 1.08×10-7 m2/s, a surface heat transfer coefficient of 95 W/m2-K, and took β=0.28 (to simulate the heating speed of a 2:3:5 box). For more information on calculating log reductions, see Appendix A.
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John When you stop horsing around it is time to fire up the BBQ & Smoker |
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02-02-2013, 06:56 AM | #60 | |
is One Chatty Farker
Join Date: 01-08-13
Location: Georgia
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Total agreement !!!
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Kamado Joe BigJoe & JoeJr, Weber WSM 22.5, Master-Touch 22, Jumbo Joe, Old Country Pecos, Weber Chimneys (steak cooking machines) :bounce: |
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