MMMM.. BRISKET..
The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS.  



Our Homepage Donation to Forum Overhead Welocme Merchandise Associations Purchase Subscription Amazon Affiliate
Go Back   The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS. > Discussion Area > Competition BBQ

Notices

Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-18-2005, 09:22 PM   #1
BrooklynQ
Banned
 
BrooklynQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-18-04
Default Comp Brisket - Chopped? Pulled? Sliced?

Guys,

At the Long Island judging class back in August, the Mullane's said that chopped brisket was a sign of being over cooked.

At the class in October, according to smokin cracker, "Dr. Death emphasized the fact that chopped or pulled brisket indicated potentially overcooked meat"

When I brought it upback in August, Jim Minon, KC Pellethead and others responded that this was not what that judges should be taught because chopped, pulled or sliced brisket is allowed by KCBS rules and that many winning teams submit chopped brisket.

So what's the deal? If the master judges are teaching the new judges that anything but sliced brisket is sub-par; isn't sliced brisket now the defacto standard for comp brisket?
BrooklynQ is offline   Reply With Quote




Old 10-18-2005, 09:44 PM   #2
The_Kapn
Moderator Emeritus

 
The_Kapn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-08-04
Location: Marianna, FL
Name/Nickname : Tim
Default

So what's the deal? If the master judges are teaching the new judges that anything but sliced brisket is sub-par; isn't sliced brisket now the defacto standard for comp brisket?

In my limited experience--here is what I think.
All of this may be right or wrong, but...?

For Brisket in particular, the "Holy Grail" has traditionally been sliced, and "done to perfection".
As we all know, that is a high bar and hard to achieve for most of us "mere mortals".
I personally slice/chop/shred/pull to my hearts content at home.
In competetion, I want sliced to be the goal and "star" and that is what we turn in.
It may be supported or filled in with chopped/shredded for other reasons.
But, properly prepared sliced is the best I can do--(not that we are there yet)!

So, it becomes a matter of expectations and "how do we show off" for the Judges!

Under the rules, sure. All are allowed.
I am there to win, if possible.

And, there needs to be something to seperate the "others" from the championship level cooks who can cook and present at that level.

One of the many valuable lessons I learned from Ray Lampe at Arthur is "let others experiment with turn-ins". He wants to stand out with "this looks so good, I just cant wait to eat it!", or words to that effect.

So, until chopped/shredded becomes "mainstream"--everyone should do what they feel is right! Maybe the "standard" will change.

JMHO

TIM
__________________
"Flirtin' with Disaster" BBQ Team (RETIRED)
FBA and KCBS Cook and Judge.
Former owner of a WSM, a Smokey Joe, a Charbroil Commercial gasser (junk), the legendary "StudeDera", a FEC100, a Fast Eddy PG500, and Sherman the Wonder Trailer.
Just sold Yoder YS640 due health
New Ninja Woodfired Grill for Christmas 2023
The_Kapn is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-18-2005, 10:08 PM   #3
smokincracker
is one Smokin' Farker
 
smokincracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-16-05
Location: Sebring, Florida
Wink Brisket Brownies

At the Lake City FBA contest I used a unfamiliar smoker to cook my brisket and it spiked for about 2 hrs...
Way over done ( brisket soup ).
Anyway we had no slices so we cut 8ea 3" by 3" brisket brownies.
We sauced them to look real nice and no crap they looked like brownies!!!
The taste was great and the presentation was good.
We pulled off 8th place in Brisket. Who would have thunk it.
smokincracker is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-18-2005, 10:15 PM   #4
jminion
is one Smokin' Farker
 
jminion's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-07-04
Location: Federal Way WA
Default

I think that to teach a judge that if something is presented in a certain manor it means is overstating the facts. I as an example turn in slices but I like to add chunks of the point which is by it's nature not good product for slicing but is very flavorful. A judge can make the call if it is over cooked by trying it not because someone has told that must be the case.
__________________
Jim
www.twoloosescrewsbbq.com
Ole Hickory EL/EDx
WSM
Primos
Klose
couple of Ranch kettles
jminion is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-19-2005, 03:14 AM   #5
Sawdustguy
Quintessential Chatty Farker
 
Sawdustguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-14-05
Location: Vernon, Connecticut
Default

This is my opinion right or wrong. I thought that an entry was to be judged on appearance, taste and texture. If an entry has a pleasant and appetizing appearance, tastes wonderful and has proper texture why the hell would it not score well, wether it is pulled, chopped or served as slices? I think any speculation on the judges part as to why a competitor decided to display his entry in any fashion is not in the spirit of fair judging. If the judge sticks to measuring the entry by the criteria set in the rules, there is no reason for it to score well, providing it satisfies each of the criteria. Speculation should never enter the equation on the judges part and should be frowned apon. I was talking to guy in my judging class as we were leaving and we briefly discussed how we judged some of the submissions during the class. He mentioned that he scored chicken low because he was got a drumstick (he was last and thats all that was left) and he didn't like drumsticks. I am sorry guys but people like this have no business as a judge. If you can't be objective and judge to the criteria set forth, don't judge.
__________________
Guy (Pitmaster)
BBQ Team: Lawn Guyland Smokers

Stupidity for Dummies

…because sometimes, you just can’t dumb it down enough…
Sawdustguy is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-19-2005, 07:05 AM   #6
wsm
Full Fledged Farker
 
wsm's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-27-05
Location: st louis, mo
Default

IMHO we are supposed to judge what we are presented, as it is presented. If brisket is presented as chopped (or chunked, burnt-ends), then I think it should be judged as chopped brisket (but I will carefully evaluate mouth feel for the mushy signs of over-cooking). To assume that it is overcooked is wrong, but if it SEEMS to be overcooked, then it IS overcooked.

Until the rules are changed to require sliced brisket, the judges cannot require that the brisket be sliced.

OMG - is this an example of the Judicial Activism that Harriet Meyers is being asked about??
__________________
rich the judge collecting piggy suspenders
St Louis, MO
Eastern Area MOFO

KCBS CBJ
WSM slightly modded, Weber Performer, Smokey Joe Gold, Whatever is handy
wsm is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-19-2005, 07:05 AM   #7
Ron_L
Moderator
 
Ron_L's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-09-04
Location: Wandering, but not lost
Name/Nickname : Captain Ron
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustguy
This is my opinion right or wrong. I thought that an entry was to be judged on appearance, taste and texture. If an entry has a pleasant and appetizing appearance, tastes wonderful and has proper texture why the hell would it not score well, wether it is pulled, chopped or served as slices?
I think you've hit the nail on the head, so to speak... What is the proper texture for brisket? Sliced, chopped or pulled, the texture (and tenderness) is different. All are allowable turn-ins, and each has its own perfect texture, so I think each should be judged as it is tunred in. If a judge gets chopped brisket, judging the texture and tenderness as if it were slices isn't appropriate to me.

Of course, I've never been through a judging class, so my opinion may not be of value...
__________________
"Ron Rico, Boss. You can call me Captain Ron..."


Naked Fatties Rock!

PKGo X 2/PK360/
Ron_L is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-19-2005, 07:20 AM   #8
Smoker
is One Chatty Farker
 
Join Date: 07-19-05
Location: Long Island NY
Default

Very well said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustguy
This is my opinion right or wrong. I thought that an entry was to be judged on appearance, taste and texture. If an entry has a pleasant and appetizing appearance, tastes wonderful and has proper texture why the hell would it not score well, wether it is pulled, chopped or served as slices? I think any speculation on the judges part as to why a competitor decided to display his entry in any fashion is not in the spirit of fair judging. If the judge sticks to measuring the entry by the criteria set in the rules, there is no reason for it to score well, providing it satisfies each of the criteria. Speculation should never enter the equation on the judges part and should be frowned apon. I was talking to guy in my judging class as we were leaving and we briefly discussed how we judged some of the submissions during the class. He mentioned that he scored chicken low because he was got a drumstick (he was last and thats all that was left) and he didn't like drumsticks. I am sorry guys but people like this have no business as a judge. If you can't be objective and judge to the criteria set forth, don't judge.
Smoker is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-19-2005, 07:20 AM   #9
smokincracker
is one Smokin' Farker
 
smokincracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-16-05
Location: Sebring, Florida
Default

Lets roll with it.

I agree with the Pollock but I think the point that we all need to realize is that this method to determine overcooked or under cooked meat is being thought at judging school. Death was very specific in the fact that thinly sliced meat would indicate undercooked meat and thicker sliced, pulled or chopped could indicate overcooked meat. Now that we all understand that and we all know how to burn a brisket lets know that we better put some good slices in the box that have good texture and fail the rubber band test. As a competition cook I took the KCBS judging class to learn a few things for myself and share them with fellow cooks/brothers so we can all turn-in a better product and have more fun. Right or wrong it obvious from these forum discussions that this method of judging brisket has been thought at other KCBS judging class as well. So we better turn in some slices with our burnt ends if we want our best chance at Grand Champion.

Cracker out!
smokincracker is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-19-2005, 12:05 PM   #10
chad
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
chad's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-13-03
Location: Clearwater, FL
Default

All these insights are interesting but the fact remains that the expectation of the judges for the Brisket category is that the brisket will be sliced. The rules ALLOW chopped, shredded, etc. but the expectation is sliced. Same as when you go to a restaurant the the menu says Texas Style brisket - chopped, chunked, shredded is not the expectation - I know that if I get chopped or shredded or a fall apart chunk of meat that it'll probably be good, but it's not what I expected when I ordered.

Competitors KNOW that they CAN put other forms of brisket in the box but the KNOW if they don't have decent slices they don't have a prayer of scoring high. Like Jim and many others we use chopped or shredded brisket and burnt ends to enhance the box and give the judges more to taste and "love".

If KCBS changes to "beef" as the definition like they do for "pork" then the EXPECTATION of the judge changes.

Right now sliced brisket is the expectation and standard for the BRISKET category. As a judge and competitor I know and understand that. This will not change as far as I can see.

The training is adequate - someone in another "judge training" thread asked if the instructors give tips -- well, the pull test is a tip for checking the brisket - not hard and fast since everyone has a different idea of what he pull should be. Same with the tip that "usually" if the team doesn't put slices in the box it's because they missed. Common sense says that if you want slices in the box and it's overdone then you'll cut thicker slices - you have too if you want slices. Same with tough brisket - slice it thinner so that you have some hope of helping it be "tender" enough to score something.

The judges are hammered all throughout the class that personal likes/dislikes are to be set aside. You indeed judge based on what you're presented - don't blame the judges for the cook missing the target for the brisket!
__________________
Dave
Southern Brethren BBQ Competition Team

"It's all about getting paid!" - Myron Mixon
"I love being hated in my hometown!" - David Hair

KingFisher Gator Rotisserie cooker (RIP), WSM (RIP), Stainless 5 burner with IR gas grill (RIP), Turkey Fryer, Weber JD Commemorative grill (RIP), Masterbuilt 40" insulated ELECTRIC smoker (new heating element),
Pit Boss Tailgater pellet pooper.
chad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-19-2005, 12:33 PM   #11
BBQchef33
Grand Poobah and Site Admin
 
BBQchef33's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-11-03
Location: Long Island, NY
Name/Nickname : Phil
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chad
All these insights are interesting but the fact remains that the expectation of the judges for the Brisket category is that the brisket will be sliced.
If this is true, then i would have to disagree with those judges. And KCBS classes needs to drill that home. The catagory is Brisket. Not Sliced brisket. Pork does not mean Pulled Pork, and Chicken does not mean thighs. It means in ANY FORM. As a judge, thats what I will expect and judge, and judge as presented. Pulled is judged as pulled and sliced as sliced. When judging, any predispositions of what I cook in my pit and put in my boxes will be left under my tent and NOT brought into the judges tent with me. <---- That is from a judges perspective.

Now, that being said, from the cooks perspective, I would be to chicken sh*t to turn in anything but sliced.
__________________
Site Administrator and
Grand PooBah

CBJ with a Fuzzy Blue Hat, 18 Foot Competition Trailer, Customized Klose BYC, Custom Built Shirley built to feed our Veterans(A.K.A "Abrams"), 1 Double Barreled Lang 84, 1 Heavily Modified Bionic Bandera, 1 Custom Super Medium Stickburning Spicewine w/stoker, 2 XL BGE, 1 Mini BGE, 2 Pit Barrel Cookers, 3 WSMs, 3 Weber Kettles, an NB Hondo, A Modified Brinkman Horizontal, DCS 48" Grill, a Broilmaster P3, a Blackstone 36 and 17, a covered, pellet pooping FEC100, and our duck died. :(

News Flash:
"A mans worth is judged by the weight of his integrity "

You know your getting older when you choose your cereal for the fiber, not the toy


Smoke on KC.
WWW.BBQ-BRETHREN.COM
BBQchef33 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-19-2005, 12:42 PM   #12
smokincracker
is one Smokin' Farker
 
smokincracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-16-05
Location: Sebring, Florida
Default

Yeh like he said
smokincracker is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-19-2005, 12:51 PM   #13
chad
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
chad's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-13-03
Location: Clearwater, FL
Default

OK, I give up.

Opinions are like *******s - and each of us has one (some full body) but the reality is that if you don't turnin sliced brisket you are cutting your throat.

You can blame the rules, blame the judges, blame KCBS but the fact remains that sliced brisket is what's expected in a turnin box. If you like tilting at windmills then go ahead and turn in chopped/pulled/chunked brisket. I just want to be in the same contest - I'm guaranteed a higher placing.

We've all had less than perfect brisket and turned in what we could. But bottom line is if you didn't cook a sliceable brisket you farked up.

And that's my *******, I mean opinion!
__________________
Dave
Southern Brethren BBQ Competition Team

"It's all about getting paid!" - Myron Mixon
"I love being hated in my hometown!" - David Hair

KingFisher Gator Rotisserie cooker (RIP), WSM (RIP), Stainless 5 burner with IR gas grill (RIP), Turkey Fryer, Weber JD Commemorative grill (RIP), Masterbuilt 40" insulated ELECTRIC smoker (new heating element),
Pit Boss Tailgater pellet pooper.
chad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-19-2005, 03:15 PM   #14
spicewine
Babbling Farker

 
spicewine's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-13-04
Location: Columbia Missouri
Default

It's almost like turning in cornish hen in the chicken category. I would have a hard time coming to grips with doing that.

We always send up sliced.

If it works for you-----just do it!!

Not a gambler like some.
__________________
The "Sauce Whisperer"

SPICEWINE IRONWORKS
Award Winning Smokers, Sauces and Spices
Columbia Missouri
www.spicewineironworks.com
PERFECT 180 CHICKEN 2011

1ST. PLACE PORK
AMERICAN ROYAL (OPEN) 2012

PERFECT SCORE180 IN RIBS 2013

BEST SAUCE IN THE WORLD ( BLUE COLLAR )
AMERICAN ROYAL 2009 & 2017

BEST RUB IN THE WORLD ( HEFFER DUST )
AMERICAN ROYAL 2007
MOFO Chapter
CISC Master BBQ Chef
spicewine is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 10-19-2005, 05:53 PM   #15
wsm
Full Fledged Farker
 
wsm's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-27-05
Location: st louis, mo
Default

If you turn in brisket that isn't sliced, I'll rate it as I feel that it deserves, but since Death says it is not properly cooked, many other judges will rate it down.

DON'T take the risk!
__________________
rich the judge collecting piggy suspenders
St Louis, MO
Eastern Area MOFO

KCBS CBJ
WSM slightly modded, Weber Performer, Smokey Joe Gold, Whatever is handy
wsm is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brisket Sandwich- Chopped or Sliced? Trucky1008 Catering, Food Handling and Awareness 37 06-03-2011 01:43 AM
Chopped/Sliced Brisket BFoster Q-talk 25 07-30-2008 10:43 PM
pulled vs chopped big blue bbq Q-talk 10 06-27-2008 02:37 AM
Sliced or Chopped Brisket for Competition Hawgsnheifers Competition BBQ 9 04-07-2007 10:04 AM
temps for sliced/chopped vs. pulled SmokeyBear Q-talk 2 02-12-2007 08:49 AM

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Forum Custom Search: Enter your Search text below. GOOGLE will search ONLY the BBQ Brethren Forum.
Custom search MAY not work(no display box) in some configurations of Internet Explorer. Please use compliant version of Firefox or Chrome.







All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
2003 -2012 © BBQ-Brethren Inc. All rights reserved. All Content and Flaming Pig Logo are registered and protected under U.S and International Copyright and Trademarks. Content Within this Website Is Property of BBQ Brethren Inc. Reproduction or alteration is strictly prohibited.
no new posts