Mandatory Comment Cards for a score below a 6

[KC_Bobby]

I like that comment card idea, but I think inconsistent scoring has more to due with non/new CBJs scoring differently. I'd like to see KCBS track past judges scores and then assign them to tables so the average CBJ score is as close as possible, then divide up the new and non-CBJs equally among the tables (I know they already try to do that later part).

I did a comp this past weekend where one team's brisket score was:
32.5714 34.2858 34.8572 30.8572 21.7142 32.0000
Which one doesn't belong? Did they get an 855 or a 656 along with all those other 8s and 9s? Hope the table capt said something ... or maybe the entry just didn't have near enough salt in it's taste profile for that judge (that's sarcasm referring to a post from a different forum). At least that was only one rough judge.

[Slamdunkpro]

Originally Posted by ZILLA

How about everyone gets 8s and 9s then a rubber stamp of a big smiley face on your comment card or maybe a gold star.

More hijacking

Score "creep" is a big issue - 7's used to be good, 8's great and 9's rare. Now it's almost expected to be given 8's just for making it to the turn in table without tripping.

[Jorge]

Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro

More hijacking

Score "creep" is a big issue - 7's used to be good, 8's great and 9's rare. Now it's almost expected to be given 8's

Actually, 9's used to be common and 180's weren't as rare. There were some changes to judging instructions and scores came down. There was another change, and scores are allegedly on the rise.

[Sweet Breathe BBQ]

A while back we received two 4's from a judge, while the rest of the scores ranged from 6-8. I think that should warrant a comment card. I think that this ties back to the fact that often times there is a wide range in scores. It is really hard to make improvements when there is such a division amongst the judges themselves.

[Balls Casten]

I dont want a card from the ONE guy who didnt like my flavor. He's going to score the way he is going to score. And I'm not going to make changes because of his score. Its the table captain's responsability to be sure he is scoring according to KCBS rules not mine.

However with my great cooking skills, I would like to see cards when I toss 141 on the board. :-)

[QueTPiesBBQ]

I got a comment card on a 5 one time that said it tasted like ketchup. Go figure.

[ModelMaker]

Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro

Just because you didn't get a comment card doesn't mean the judge didn't write one. The KCBS reps edit/discard them at their discretion.

Absolutley untrue.... Who told you that this is the case or are you guessing that's what happens?
During judges instructions we are told that ALL cards get attached to your score sheets, period.

As far as mandatory comment cards at any given number, whatever one you choose (4,5,6) it puts a mental block that says if I give that number I have to fill out a card. Chances are you'll never see that number or lower again. Is that how you think judging should go?
Remember a 5 is just simply below average, not crap, not inedible, 5 is not that far out of whack. If your food is just slightly less than average your gonna get a 5. I have given out several 5's this year.
And as a rule I have filled out 4 comment cards also. They simply said what it was that made that sample a 5. Thats how the system works.
Tis true all judges don't always get it, but find anything in life that is just the way everbody wants it.
Ed

[ModelMaker]

Originally Posted by QueTPiesBBQ

I got a comment card on a 5 one time that said it tasted like ketchup. Go figure.

So the judge didn't like your sauce and told you why.....
what more do you want?
Ed

[rweller]

I have judged or Table Captained 10 contest this year and I beleive that every REP while doing his speach has told us if we score a 5 or below to please write a comment card as to why you are giving that score. That way they have a justification to the team and it will also let the team know why it was given.
As someone mentioned above I'm sure there are some judges that won't give a 5 or below because they have to fill out the comment card.
But then you have some judges(not many) that give them out left and right and it doesn't bother them to fill out the cards.
When I table Captain I do look at the judges cards for low scores and if I see one judge giving a lot of them or more than the rest of the judges I do let the REP know. It is the REPS jobs to talk to them not the TC.

[Slamdunkpro]

Originally Posted by ModelMaker

Absolutley untrue.... Who told you that this is the case or are you guessing that's what happens?
During judges instructions we are told that ALL cards get attached to your score sheets, period.

Ever worked an event? If not I suggest you do before you make statements like this. I've witnessed various reps discarding comment cards on multiple occasions.

[Alexa RnQ]

Originally Posted by ZILLA

You want higher scores? Learn to cook better. A low score should be all the comment you need. If you're a cooker you should be able to figure it out like all the others that took the time and made the effort and investment to get it right without some self righteous CBJ telling you what direction to head. You want a CBJ to tell you what's wrong? Really? You would end up with rubber stamp BBQ.

I think our record would substantiate that we have indeed learned to cook better. And we still see way too many rogue scores to just blow it off. If one is fortunate to live in an area with a plethora of experienced and consistent judges, it's a non-issue for you -- that doesn't mean it isn't an issue for others.

Originally Posted by ModelMaker

As far as mandatory comment cards at any given number, whatever one you choose (4,5,6) it puts a mental block that says if I give that number I have to fill out a card. Chances are you'll never see that number or lower again.

Every judge that fills out a comment card now for those numbers refutes that idea. I would not, however, advocate a mandatory card for a 6.

[dmprantz]

Originally Posted by ZILLA

How about everyone gets 8s and 9s then a rubber stamp of a big smiley face on your comment card or maybe a gold star.

I apologize for the threadjack, but why is it that every time some one asks for ways to improve consistancy in KCBS scoring, some one has to come on the thread and sarcastically suggest that every one get a 180 and a trophy like a children's karate tournament? Is it always the same person or two? I don't think that any one here is in doubt of the fact that BBQ comps are in fact competitions and that some people do better than others. I also don't think that any one doubts that there are some teams, here in The Brethren and otherwise, who are just better than than other teams, in product, consitency, or both. Still, people get frustrated with left field scores, and it comes up enough that maybe, just maybe it's worth having a conversation about it.

Some competitors are just so darned good that they never get anything below an 8, great for them! Other's have resigned themselves to the fact that the stray 6 or 5 or whatever is going to find its way into their scorecard no matter how good they feel their product was. That's very admirable. Others still want to be good, want to improve, and want to ensure that when they do get a good product out there, they get rewarded for it. I'd like to suggest that those who know that their product is always great and never get a bad score discuss that amongst themselves. Is it really productive to imply that people are asking for a GC trophy every time scoring anomolies are discussed? Does that ever really help anything? Am I the only one who feels this way (Very likely, so don't worry).

Again, sorry for the threadjack. If mods feel this should be its own thread, lemme know and I'll copy and paste it there.

dmp

[ZILLA]

Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro

More hijacking

Score "creep" is a big issue - 7's used to be good, 8's great and 9's rare. Now it's almost expected to be given 8's just for making it to the turn in table without tripping.

Hijacking my arse! You need to read my post and it's intent "Slamdunkpro".

Let me carify....Quit whining! Is that a little more clear? Go cook and live with it! How about this one...Not everybody is going to like your food or thinks as much of it as you do.

[ModelMaker]

Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro

Ever worked an event? If not I suggest you do before you make statements like this. I've witnessed various reps discarding comment cards on multiple occasions.

No I have never stood at the score input table but the statement I made
" ALL cards get attached to your score sheets" is a direct quote from the president of the KCBS if your reps are " discarding comment cards on multiple occasions" they appear to be acting out of compliance with what Mr Lake is instructing.
Perhaps you should follow up with a communication to Mike as this only defeats the effort to help cook teams understand their scoreing questions.
Ed

[Bentley]

Originally Posted by Sledneck

Should there be a mandatory comment card for a score below a 6? Has this ever been discussed/voted on? Does anybody else support this? If enough members are interested in making this a rule how do we get it on the table?

I would like to see it mandatory, but don't think it ever will be. I believe KCBS might be worried you would drive those judges away if they feel pressured to do so...I think that would be the best thing that could happen to the judging pool...You need judges who are as commited to excellence in the judging as you do a cook competing. If the judge is not willing to make that commitment, I hope they will be driven out. I know as a competitor I have a little different view of judging then someone who does not. It seems we are constantly adding new judges here in CA. It probably took me a little less time to take the personal aspect of judging out of the equation because I compete, but it simpily does take time...I dont know how many times I have sat at a table with a non-CBJ or one that has judged 1-2 contest and they will give a score below a six and not even consider advising the team why...And I agree, the comment needs to be constructive and informative, if you cant articulate why you gave it a 3, 4 or 5, you have no business sitting in the seat.

I wish CBJ classes would concentrate on what makes BBQ above or below average, not is there Red leaf or kale in a box, how often does that happen at a contest?

But if I give a judge in a class a choice of Brisket, Butt, Ribs or Chicken, each one cooked to 160°, 195° and 215° do any of you competition cooks think there may be a difference in the tenderness of each of those...If I submit a non seasoned, a "properly" seasoned and a super coated with rub and sauce, do you think there maybe a different flavor profile...never understood why things like this are not done at classes. You know I am not gonna be sitting at the Algonquin Round table anytime soon, if I can think up this stuff, I am sure there are a lot smarter folks at KCBS that should be able to too!