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Q-talk *ON TOPIC ONLY* QUALITY ON TOPIC discussion of Backyard BBQ, grilling, equipment and outdoor cookin' . ** Other cooking techniques are welcomed for when your cookin' in the kitchen. Post your hints, tips, tricks & techniques, success, failures, but stay on topic and watch for that hijacking.


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Old 05-24-2016, 07:10 AM   #61
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I have a LBGE, Horizon Classic 16 and a 22 Weber kettle with a rotisserie and kettle pizza kit. I'm done, except for a few accessories that might be homemade. The only regret I have is not saving up the money for the Horizon from the get go, but buying the cheap, home improvement store brands. I went through enough of those to have paid for the Horizon, plus. What ever you get, you still have to learn the ins and outs of it, to get the best out of it.
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:16 AM   #62
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Im not saying that it won't work better, I am saying that ceramic will work better in my opinion. I am sure the new weber is great for many, but I live on the other side of the border from you so I share the Buffalo weather if that helps.

My Kamado Joes were amazing in the cold winter months, dropping to -40 with windchill. My Komodo Kamado 23" Ultimate can hit 350 degrees in 15 min in -35 this year and be solid at that temp as long as it needs.

I wanted a BGE more than anything when I started out. I honestly had to convince myself to get a Kamado Joe. But what did it for me was the fact that side tables, nest, deflector, grill tools, ash pan were all standard features.

I also prefer dealing with the company direct for warranty. A quick form you fill out and then you have your replacement by weeks end. With the BGE I would be required to go back to the dealer every single time and deal with them. Not a huge deal unless you live further away. Free shipping to the door is worth the KJ alone.

Going to the Komodo Kamado was like getting a mac. You don't worry about viruses with a Mac, and with the KK you never worry about cracks, gaskets etc. etc. This thing was built to go the distance.

I love all brands of BBQ, I respect stick burners, I just can't justify one in my setup now. I am strongly considering the addition of a pellet grill and if I do go that route I will need the winter blanket accessory to help with the cold Canadian Climate. That is what holds me back.

BGE is a solid cooker and if your heart is set on it then so be it. Please do yourself the favour and check out the Kamado Joe and at least visit the Komodo Kamado page and check out the 23" Ultimate. This grill will be your forever grill and last you a lifetime. You pay a bit up front but like anything else in life..... you get what you pay for.
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:18 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigC View Post
I have a LBGE, Horizon Classic 16 and a 22 Weber kettle with a rotisserie and kettle pizza kit. I'm done, except for a few accessories that might be homemade. The only regret I have is not saving up the money for the Horizon from the get go, but buying the cheap, home improvement store brands. I went through enough of those to have paid for the Horizon, plus. What ever you get, you still have to learn the ins and outs of it, to get the best out of it.
I love this comment.

I have spent so much money buying BBQ things to find what I really liked and needed as opposed to just saving up and buying the best out of the gate.

BBQ purchases for me have been an evolution of my hobby. I have no regrets, however, I could have saved so much if I would have just gone for it.

Great post CraigC
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:24 AM   #64
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+1 on what bosco said regarding Kamado Joe. I was eyeing the WSCG as well, but what sold me on KJ was exactly what he said...well stated.

The WSCG looks awesome, but fact is there aren't many reviews or user experiences out there yet, and certainly nothing discussing performance in winter. It should be fine, but that's a lot of money to plunk down based on very little data and an assumption. The very opposite is true with Kamados. Lots of positive user experience and robust community. And KJ makes it easy with all they include in their standard package.
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:25 AM   #65
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I am paralyzed with too much info
I don't like hearing that you don't think the Weber won't work in the cold
I think the Weber will shine in cold weather, note I said think, no one knows at this point. You do understand it has dual walls right?

Go to stores and get your hands on the Weber and the BGE and make your own decision.
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:29 AM   #66
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Thanks again all
Still leaning weber. It enjoy reading it all
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:53 AM   #67
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I also think the Webber summit will be fine in cold weather. It is a dual wall insulated cooker and should behave similar to the Keg and Acorn cookers that have been around for a long time.

There are a lot of happy XL BGE owners and Kamado Joe Big Joe owners out there. The biggest knock on the Webber is it is new so there is a general lack of direct experience. If I was going to get a 24" Kamado, I would have passed on being a tester with the Webber at that price and got a KJ because I liked the quality and innovation over the BGE. In another year or two my thinking will likely be very different, but a month ago the collective Internet knowledge base was non-existent. Today the Webbers are showing up on people's patios and reviews are pouring in so your decision may be different.

I was leaning more toward the large 18" size, and in that format I liked the BGE better because of the extra room under the dome vs the KJ Classic. I was getting real close to making a large BGE purchase when I saw the Costco Pit Boss and I liked its in between size and price tag low enough I was willing to take the risk and be a beta tester. It is definitely not the same quality as a KJ or BGE but I am very pleased with it and glad I finally bought SOMETHING.

I am also glad I did NOT buy the 18" Large BGE. I was fairly convinced the XL was bigger than I wanted, and I still think it is a bit big for me, but now that I have cooked on the Pit Boss, I realize how cramped the smaller 18" would have been for me. I think to some extent, you just aren't going to know exactly what you want until you have one at home for a few weeks and get to use it.
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:15 AM   #68
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The keg and akorn have concrete lined insulator between the two layers of steel where as the weber is open cavity from what I understand. I am not 100% on that fact but I know the keg and akorn have material between them
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Old 05-24-2016, 10:31 AM   #69
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Well, I will return to my experience as a former mechanical engineer on this post.

There are two different concepts that are being discussed, first is insulation capabilities (heat transfer), and second is heat retention (Specific Heat Capacity). Air is by far a superior insulator to ceramic material, as measured by their thermal conductivities, which are 0.024 for air and between 0.19 and 0.36 for ceramics. Note this is thermal conductivity which is the inverse of insulation, so the lower conductivity number is the superior insulator (air).

Since heat transfer is a function of thickness (and not mass), assuming the air gap in the Weber is the same as the wall thickness of the BGE, then the Weber is by far the superior insulator, almost 10 times better. This is only true, however, as long as the temperature gradient is the same (meaning the inside temperature is maintained as well as the outside temperature).

By contrast, the specific heat capacity is a function of mass, not thickness. While air still has superior heat retention per unit of mass with a 1.012 specific heat vs a 0.90 specific heat for ceramics, the fact that there is an order of magnitude less mass of air than ceramics. The ceramics will perform at much better heat retention once the fire is out, and will be much more stable when their is a change in temperature gradient (like can occur during sporadic wind gusts and changing fire conditions due to uneven airflow.)

So what does this mean? Well, based on my understanding, this would mean that under steady state conditions (constant wind speed, precipitation, outside temp, and fuel burn) I would expect the Weber will offer more efficiencies. Under transient conditions (changing wind speeds, changing precipitation, changing outside temperatures, uneven fuel burn caused by inconsistent airflow), however, the ceramics will offer more stability in internal fire box temperature.

I think this is why you see the recovery rate of the Weber to much quicker than that of the ceramics.

I hope this helps, and if anyone has anything else to add or has a different understanding of heat transfer, please feel free to comment or add.
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Old 05-24-2016, 10:51 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbzipf View Post
Well, I will return to my experience as a former mechanical engineer on this post.

There are two different concepts that are being discussed, first is insulation capabilities (heat transfer), and second is heat retention (Specific Heat Capacity). Air is by far a superior insulator to ceramic material, as measured by their thermal conductivities, which are 0.024 for air and between 0.19 and 0.36 for ceramics. Note this is thermal conductivity which is the inverse of insulation, so the lower conductivity number is the superior insulator (air).

Since heat transfer is a function of thickness (and not mass), assuming the air gap in the Weber is the same as the wall thickness of the BGE, then the Weber is by far the superior insulator, almost 10 times better. This is only true, however, as long as the temperature gradient is the same (meaning the inside temperature is maintained as well as the outside temperature).

By contrast, the specific heat capacity is a function of mass, not thickness. While air still has superior heat retention per unit of mass with a 1.012 specific heat vs a 0.90 specific heat for ceramics, the fact that there is an order of magnitude less mass of air than ceramics. The ceramics will perform at much better heat retention once the fire is out, and will be much more stable when their is a change in temperature gradient (like can occur during sporadic wind gusts and changing fire conditions due to uneven airflow.)

So what does this mean? Well, based on my understanding, this would mean that under steady state conditions (constant wind speed, precipitation, outside temp, and fuel burn) I would expect the Weber will offer more efficiencies. Under transient conditions (changing wind speeds, changing precipitation, changing outside temperatures, uneven fuel burn caused by inconsistent airflow), however, the ceramics will offer more stability in internal fire box temperature.

I think this is why you see the recovery rate of the Weber to much quicker than that of the ceramics.

I hope this helps, and if anyone has anything else to add or has a different understanding of heat transfer, please feel free to comment or add.
How would the engineering affect a cook in the real world ? Is the weber a fail in transient conditions ?
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Old 05-24-2016, 10:56 AM   #71
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No, not at all. it is just a bit less stable.
Scenario 1, its a cold day outside 20 deg F with steady wind at 15 mph, The Weber should perform better (maintain temps and use less fuel than the ceramics)

Scenario 2, its a mild day outside 52 deg f partly cloudy with wind gusts up to 15 mph and scattered showers, The ceramic will do a better job of maintaining a constant temperature with out needing to adjust air flows. by contrast you would either need to adjust airflows on the Weber, or experience more +/- 5 to 10 deg F swings in cooking temperatures . note that it will be orders of magnitude more stable than the traditional weber kettle.
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Old 05-24-2016, 11:03 AM   #72
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This is almost as much fun as a pbc vs wsm thread! Carry on!
^^^^^^^ +2 ^^^^^^^
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Old 05-24-2016, 11:05 AM   #73
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How would the engineering affect a cook in the real world ? Is the weber a fail in transient conditions ?
No, because both properties come into play. When a gust of cold air hits the Webber and cools the outer metal skin, the insulating properties of the air gap will slow the transfer of heat from the inside. Either solution should be much better than a kettle in the cold as far as fuel efficiency, and much more stable due to wind gusts or periodic flurries etc.

I think, emphasis THINK, the Webber will be a bit less stable to internal transient conditions. If the fire drops off a bit, there is no hot ceramic mass to release heat back into the chamber. If the fire spikes a bit, there is no ceramic mass to absorb some of it. I don't think that will make much of a real world difference, but you could always add some thermal mass in the form of firebricks. Not nearly as much as a ceramic Kamado, and not ideal in that it uses up internal space, but it is an option. Again, I don't think it will be necessary.
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Old 05-24-2016, 11:08 AM   #74
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No, because both properties come into play. When a gust of cold air hits the Webber and cools the outer metal skin, the insulating properties of the air gap will slow the transfer of heat from the inside. Either solution should be much better than a kettle in the cold as far as fuel efficiency, and much more stable due to wind gusts or periodic flurries etc.

I think, emphasis THINK, the Webber will be a bit less stable to internal transient conditions. If the fire drops off a bit, there is no hot ceramic mass to release heat back into the chamber. If the fire spikes a bit, there is no ceramic mass to absorb some of it. I don't think that will make much of a real world difference, but you could always add some thermal mass in the form of firebricks. Not nearly as much as a ceramic Kamado, and not ideal in that it uses up internal space, but it is an option. Again, I don't think it will be necessary.
Exactly! Well said!
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Old 05-24-2016, 11:11 AM   #75
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Exactly! Well said!
I could easy make a stupid joke here but let me just say thanks
Your explanations are very helpful
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