Those dam judges

[Gadragonfly]

[QUOTE=Bigmista;1830210]Kelly and Kathleen (Kathleen is Mrs. McIntosh, not Kelly but I will tell him what you said)

That's what I get for cutting and pasting from something I wrote this summer (and then never sent to the Bullsheet). In its original form, I had the right name for "Mrs. McIntosh"

J

[ModelMaker]

Originally Posted by Stoke&Smoke

Just curious what you mean by Mike's "bias towards the cook team".

I've judged a number of contests he's repped, but cooked more, are you saying he favors teams over judges? Not trying to start anything here, just want to understand what you're saying.

Not to slam judges, as without them, there can be no comp really. (and I am one, as well as a certified table captain) But shouldn't the cooks be given the highest level of consideration?

The judges are there to judge the product the cooks made. The cooks are a lot more invested financially, timewise, etc. The judges pay their transportation and possibly lodging costs.

So do the cooks, along with entry fees, meat costs, ingredient costs, etc. So doesn't it follow that it's the cooks, whose product is being judged, deserve the utmost consideration?

I'm always happy to see Mike and Theresa repping. I know we have the best chance at a fair shake

The "bias" I speak of is the exact thing you are presenting. Cooks do this, cooks spend this, cooks deserve this.
Cooks decide to practice their skills at a BBQ event (period).
Judges decide to come to this event and practice their skill also (period).
My preference is to judge a Mike and Theresa contest because of how they run it. It's obvious that Mike the cook has a preference, it's not good, it's not bad, it is just there.
Ed

[Slamdunkpro]

It's a deeper problem than a few rogue judges or a continuing education program. As BBQ gets into bigger and bigger money there are people that will take advantage of the ambiguities in the rules. The rules committee needs to take a deep look at the rules and eliminate the loopholes, ambiguities, and open windows. Once that's done a lot of judging issues will resolve themselves.

There is a lot of talk about monitoring judges for "outside the norm" scoring. This is a slippery slope that can easily lead to score inflation if not managed in the proper manner. Go down the wrong road and you wind up with 50 180's at every contest.

Comment cards need to be used at every event and not censored by the reps. It would be easy to make comment cards more productive without sacrificing speed by using a sliding scale mark system. The judge simply marks where they feel where the sample is lacking and to what degree

As an example: (judge marks in red)

TOO SALTY............................GOOD............. .........NEEDS SALT
|-----------------|--------------|------------------------------|
MUSHY................................GOOD......... .....................TOUGH
|--------------------------------|-------------------------|----|
SPICY.................................. GOOD............................. BLAND
|--|-----------------------------|------------------------------|
TOO SWEET...........................GOOD.............. ........TOO ACIDIC
|--------------------------------|-------------------------|----|

Based on this comment card this cook's chicken was undercooked, salty, too hot and vinegary.

[Bentley]

Originally Posted by Rookie'48

How about this?: When something changes and/or needs clarification KCBS can publish it in the Bullsheet AND send out an e-mail blast to all members.

I think that this would be more effective than just issuing a Rep Advisory or putting it in the Bullsheet.

I have been a KCBS member & CBJ for 10 year. I have read the Bullsheet maybe 5 times in that period...I check my email 10 times a day.

Good Idea.

[Bunny]

Originally Posted by YankeeBBQ

I was just looking at the Reps advisories and came across this.


Opinion: The CDs were produced so that the meeting instructions are repeated exactly the same at
every contest. Under no circumstances are KCBS Reps to deviate from the pre-recorded set of
instructions. If the CD fails to work, read the instructions, word-for-word. A copy of the
instructions should be available in your Contest Representative Manual (book), at KCBS.US, or on
the yahoo group.
You are not to offer your personal opinions! If a question about a rule is asked, you are to answer
the question to the best of your ability. Don’t offer opinions to judges on how to judge for
appearance, what tenderness means, etc.

Thank you, Steve. Exactly what we've been told to do. Sometimes we reiterate the procedures, but that's important that all new judges understand what's happening. (Like getting the numbers on the right square). But never give our opinion on what's a good piece of brisket. If that was the case, I'd tell them how I cook mine. LOL

[TooSaucedToPork]

Originally Posted by ModelMaker

The "bias" I speak of is the exact thing you are presenting. Cooks do this, cooks spend this, cooks deserve this.
Cooks decide to practice their skills at a BBQ event (period).
Judges decide to come to this event and practice their skill also (period).
My preference is to judge a Mike and Theresa contest because of how they run it. It's obvious that Mike the cook has a preference, it's not good, it's not bad, it is just there.
Ed

I take offense to this.

There should be a bias to the cooks (period).

Any idiot with $75 dollars can pay for a judging class and judge my food which I have spent thousands on equipment, food, entry fees and lodging. A judge has invested $75 in a class and possibly a hotel for the contest, I have spent more than a judge just entering a contest.

The judges need to be educated better to understand the "free" food they score (and carry away with them in their cute little coolers) is actually my blood, sweat, and tears. Yes there is a bias to the cooks, anyone can pay $75 and become a judge...how many people can cook competition quality BBQ...not many.

I'm not trashing judges (I am one) they are needed to make this sport work. I'm just saying that, yes judges are important, but the cooks (and good reps) are the stars of the show...People don't pay a gate fee to see a bunch of judges.

I'm tired of spending my hard earned money on a contest only to be thrown out of the top 5 by that dang judge #5...(its always that guy). We as cooks are doing our part...many judges need to be better trained to do theirs.

Sorry for the rant, its a topic that has needed fixing for years...IMHO

[Bentley]

Originally Posted by TooSaucedToPork

I take offense to this.

Any idiot with $75 dollars can pay for a judging class and judge my food which I have spent thousands on equipment, food, entry fees and lodging. A judge has invested $75 in a class and possibly a hotel for the contest, I have spent more than a judge just entering a contest.

Maybe the teams that have spent the most on equipment and supplies need to be given more points for that effort. Maybe if I know who has spent the most on equipment and supplies I can judge more accordingly...just sayin.

[PorkQPine]

"Any idiot with $75 dollars can pay for a judging class and judge my food which I have spent thousands on equipment, food, entry fees and lodging. A judge has invested $75 in a class and possibly a hotel for the contest, I have spent more than a judge just entering a contest.

The judges need to be educated better to understand the "free" food they score (and carry away with them in their cute little coolers) is actually my blood, sweat, and tears. Yes there is a bias to the cooks, anyone can pay $75 and become a judge...how many people can cook competition quality BBQ...not many.

I'm not trashing judges (I am one) they are needed to make this sport work."

I guess you define trashing different than I do. BTW, it takes more than one judge to toss you out of the top 5. After 5 years judging and cooking with a team once a year, i can tell you that I have seen many cases where more than one sample in the box was not good. This is especially true with ribs and chicken since they are separate pieces. I also see burnt ends ruin a turn-in occasionally when the burnt ends are not as good as the slices and the same goes for pork where the pulled and chunks are not of the same quality. I know almost every CBJ in N.Cal and the reps who cover our territory and I can tell you that they are serious and do their best.

I have been an advocate of continuing education for CBJ's and also CBJ's should cook with a team at least once a year. Once the teams get to know the judges I think that a lot of the animosity directed toward the judges will diminish.

[Rookie'48]

Originally Posted by TooSaucedToPork

...Any idiot with $75 dollars can pay for a judging class and judge my food which I have spent thousands on equipment, food, entry fees and lodging.

...the "free" food they score (and carry away with them in their cute little coolers) is actually my blood, sweat, and tears. Yes there is a bias to the cooks, anyone can pay $75 and become a judge...how many people can cook competition quality BBQ...not many.

I'm not trashing judges (I am one)

Ok, I guess that I'm one of the "idiots" that paid for a judging class in early 2007. I was a part-time member of a cooking team & I wanted to judge maybe two or three comps a year while cooking five or six. An injury to my lower back put my competitive cooking out of the question, at least for any more than one or two comps a year, so I decided to spend more of my time judging.

I have judged over sixty contests in the past five years, the vast majority of them 100 miles or more from home. I normally take my travel trailer to an RV park near the comp and show up on the grounds around 6 pm to visit with old friends and meet new ones. Yes, I have a "cute little" cooler that I pull around on a two-wheeler. Mine usually has Busch Light and a whole bunch of different smoked cheeses in it that I'm quite willing to share as I wander around. By the way, my cooler has yet to see the inside of a judging tent.

I usually leave the contest grounds around 11:30 pm after leaving my two-wheeler / cooler stashed at a friend's spot. In the morning I'm back to judge some damn fine (for the most part) BBQ. As I walk into the grounds I wave and say "Good morning & good luck" to any cook who looks my way, whether I know them or not.

After the judging is over I'm back out on the grounds visiting with friends, answering questions about how the food was, maybe sharing a beer or giving my opinion on their leftovers. When it's time for the awards I'm right there cheering on all of the competitors, but especially those that I know personally.

And as far as cooking ability goes, I know that I can do better than some of the turn-ins that I've seen. The majority of comp cooks can cook circles around me and that's a fact - but there are a few ...

So yeah, I guess that you've got more dollars wrapped up in this hobby than I do. But I'll be damned if you've got more time or commitment invested than I do.

[Warthog]

Originally Posted by Bentley

Maybe the teams that have spent the most on equipment and supplies need to be given more points for that effort. Maybe if I know who has spent the most on equipment and supplies I can judge more accordingly...just sayin.

Now that is a load of crap. Judge on how much a team spent. Food should be judged on its merits only. Your saying the guy with the Jambo should get higher points then the the guy using a WSM?

[Jeff_in_KC]

Originally Posted by Warthog

Now that is a load of crap. Judge on how much a team spent. Food should be judged on its merits only. Your saying the guy with the Jambo should get higher points then the the guy using a WSM?

I think you missed the sarcasm tags.

This is an interesting thread. I think if anyone uses the term "remedial", we should turn and run...FAST! What better way to alienate judges than tell them they are now having to take "Remedial Judging"? What an insult! I am all for continuing education for CBJs. We have a problem with generations of judges. This was a point I made while campaigning in 2009. We have long time judges who learned years ago under different circumstances and sets of rules by totally different people than are teaching now. All judges need to be on the same page and there are ways we can do that. It's not remedial at all. I will say this though - getting upset that one judge was two points off everyone else is no cause for alarm. If I'm getting 8's and 9's and one gives me a 7 or two, that's the breaks. Sorry but it's the truth. Now if I'm getting 6's or below from one judge when everything else is am 8 or 9, that's a little different. Good food is good food and most judges will recognize that. I think the issue is that some judges just think that because of the definitions assigned to the scoring numbers, giving you a seven is paying you a compliment. It's above the average but not outstanding. And we don't all cook outstanding food every week. Maybe we like to THINK we do but if you're honest with yourself, you'll have to admit there were probably things you could have done better to get a better score. I have blamed judges before but in the last two years, we've really learned a lot about what we're turning in. And 95% of the time, judges get it right. Just sayin'...

[Rookie'48]

Originally Posted by Bentley

Maybe the teams that have spent the most on equipment and supplies need to be given more points for that effort. Maybe if I know who has spent the most on equipment and supplies I can judge more accordingly...just sayin.

Originally Posted by Warthog

Now that is a load of crap. Judge on how much a team spent. Food should be judged on its merits only. Your saying the guy with the Jambo should get higher points then the the guy using a WSM?

Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC

I think you missed the sarcasm tags.

Bentley ..... sarcastic? ..... say it ain't so!

[Bentley]

Originally Posted by Warthog

Now that is a load of crap. Judge on how much a team spent. Food should be judged on its merits only. Your saying the guy with the Jambo should get higher points then the the guy using a WSM?

Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC

I think you missed the sarcasm tags.

Ding,ding,ding...We have a winner!

[Slamdunkpro]

It really needs to stop being an us vs them thing. Sure, cooks spend more money, but they also have the oppurtunity for a greater financial return. The only real compensation that a judge gets is possibly a goodie bag and left overs (unless it's a comp that prohibits that - but that's another pot to stir).

[Jorge]

Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC

I think you missed the sarcasm tags.

This is an interesting thread. I think if anyone uses the term "remedial", we should turn and run...FAST! What better way to alienate judges than tell them they are now having to take "Remedial Judging"? What an insult! I am all for continuing education for CBJs. We have a problem with generations of judges. This was a point I made while campaigning in 2009. We have long time judges who learned years ago under different circumstances and sets of rules by totally different people than are teaching now. All judges need to be on the same page and there are ways we can do that. It's not remedial at all. I will say this though - getting upset that one judge was two points off everyone else is no cause for alarm. If I'm getting 8's and 9's and one gives me a 7 or two, that's the breaks. Sorry but it's the truth. Now if I'm getting 6's or below from one judge when everything else is am 8 or 9, that's a little different. Good food is good food and most judges will recognize that. I think the issue is that some judges just think that because of the definitions assigned to the scoring numbers, giving you a seven is paying you a compliment. It's above the average but not outstanding. And we don't all cook outstanding food every week. Maybe we like to THINK we do but if you're honest with yourself, you'll have to admit there were probably things you could have done better to get a better score. I have blamed judges before but in the last two years, we've really learned a lot about what we're turning in. And 95% of the time, judges get it right. Just sayin'...

Originally Posted by Warthog

Now that is a load of crap. Judge on how much a team spent. Food should be judged on its merits only. Your saying the guy with the Jambo should get higher points then the the guy using a WSM?

Originally Posted by Bentley

Maybe the teams that have spent the most on equipment and supplies need to be given more points for that effort. Maybe if I know who has spent the most on equipment and supplies I can judge more accordingly...just sayin.

Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro

It really needs to stop being an us vs them thing. Sure, cooks spend more money, but they also have the oppurtunity for a greater financial return. The only real compensation that a judge gets is possibly a goodie bag and left overs (unless it's a comp that prohibits that - but that's another pot to stir).

Bentley is known for going over the top, from time to time, to make a point. I don't always agree with the method or the point, but he's put some thought into it and is willing to stand behind it.

Jeff made a point that I strongly agree with. Judges usually get it right. Judge 5 isn't always wrong. Sometimes they get a rib that looked as good as the others, but just wasn't! It happens. It's not like a pork box where you can pull a little piece off of everything going into the box to make sure it has the right flavor etc... With the new software, given time, it will be possible to identify those judges that are consistently scoring outside of the norm and then address those issues. The overwhelming majority of judges take the task seriously, and do a phenomenal job. In Texas we don't use CBJs, but draw people off the street. They usually get it right as well. What KCBS offers is a little more consistency, and that's something I think we need to focus on and improve where possible.

Slamdunkpro, raises a fair point as well. Judges don't have the financial investment a cook does, but they've invested their time and deserve courtesy and respect for their contributions as well. If you think there are regional flavor profiles in KCBS then I invite you to come cook in Texas or talk to Texas cooks about what changes some make when cooking at a VFW etc...

99% of the issues that cooks have, are probably with 1% of the judges. Cooks and judges alike should probably think about that before speaking, and I'll raise my hand and admit that I've been guilty in the past. You can't judge without cooks, but a cook is going to be be happier more often than not with an experienced judge.