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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Old 11-22-2013, 07:38 AM   #91
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I have a question, why cant you get slices (mm) and pulled from the same butt? the only advantage to parting and putting back on the cooker to me would be to set the sauce a little, I wonder how many people are gonna change their method and over cook the pork in a boiling vat of sauce...
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Old 11-22-2013, 08:08 AM   #92
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It's not that we don't want the rule changed - we don't want a flawed rule. The new rule in it's current incantation is flawed. It has a huge amount of wiggle room and, as written turns pork into a grilling contest (c'mon, we all know it does). Don't give me this crap about "trimming all the way down to the money muscle and just cooking that would be a DQ because it violates the "spirit of the rule" when butterflying and leaving the money muscle attached by a thread clearly violates the cooked whole spirit of the current rule but is never called or discussed. Doing this just creates a sea of grey interpretation making enforcement that much more difficult.

The "spirit" of the whole shoulder / Boston butt / roast rule is to show skill in cooking the traditional big meat. The new rule as written turns that on it's head. There has been more discussion about cheating / angle shooting in pork than any other meat since I've been around. Clearly pork is a a problem area and as such should a new rule be enacted it needs to be clearly defined so that there is no question as to what is permitted. It also shouldn't "dumb down" the skill required.
You are absolutely correct. Research the pork rule and it various changes. Each change looks like an attempt to refocus the cooks back to the spirit of the rule as cooks became more creative in trimming.

Pork shall be the whole shoulder or one of the two halves (Picnic or Butt), bone-in or deboned, having a minimum weight of 5 pounds after trimming. Deboned pork has to be tied in a manor to resemble the bone in product. Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited.

The above rule returns to the original intent.
Having a minimum weight after trimming would eliminate trimming a 5 pound butt to just the money muscle.
Deboned pork would have to be tied.
Prohibiting any “separation of the muscles before cooking is complete” would eliminate the creative trimming being done were the muscle groups are separated from each other but still attached by a sliver of the fat cap with the MM tied together and tethered to the blade portion. This also prohibits the cook in returning any portion of the pork to the cooker after separation.

Separation is a better word to use than “parting”. Separate means: not touching, not together; not in the same place.
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Old 11-22-2013, 08:25 AM   #93
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I wonder how many people are gonna change their method and over cook the pork in a boiling vat of sauce...
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Old 11-22-2013, 08:26 AM   #94
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:42 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by BMerrill View Post
You are absolutely correct. Research the pork rule and it various changes. Each change looks like an attempt to refocus the cooks back to the spirit of the rule as cooks became more creative in trimming.

Pork shall be the whole shoulder or one of the two halves (Picnic or Butt), bone-in or deboned, having a minimum weight of 5 pounds after trimming. Deboned pork has to be tied in a manor to resemble the bone in product. Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited.

The above rule returns to the original intent.
Having a minimum weight after trimming would eliminate trimming a 5 pound butt to just the money muscle.
Deboned pork would have to be tied.
Prohibiting any “separation of the muscles before cooking is complete” would eliminate the creative trimming being done were the muscle groups are separated from each other but still attached by a sliver of the fat cap with the MM tied together and tethered to the blade portion. This also prohibits the cook in returning any portion of the pork to the cooker after separation.

Separation is a better word to use than “parting”. Separate means: not touching, not together; not in the same place.
Even this rule could be picked apart. " Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited." Ok so in my opinion as a cook the cooking of my butt is complete. I separate the muscles and pull into chunks or shred it however I want. So now I want to set my sauce or just bring my pork up to temp before turning in. What in this rule prohibits that ? And why would you want to prohibit that ? I can do it with every other category. Am I a bad cook or just one that wants to turn in the best product I possibly can to the judges ? I don't want to grill it, microwave it or boil it in sauce, I just want to turn in nice hot pork to the judges. What's so wrong about that ?

Any bbq restaurant you go to holds their pulled pork in some type of warmer, they don't just pull it and leave it sitting on the counter. If you went to a restaurant and got cold pork I'm sure you wouldn't be very pleased. I've heard people say judges shouldn't mark down if it's cold. Why not ? It shouldn't be cold.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:40 AM   #96
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Even this rule could be picked apart. " Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited." Ok so in my opinion as a cook the cooking of my butt is complete. I separate the muscles and pull into chunks or shred it however I want. So now I want to set my sauce or just bring my pork up to temp before turning in. What in this rule prohibits that ? And why would you want to prohibit that ? I can do it with every other category. Am I a bad cook or just one that wants to turn in the best product I possibly can to the judges ? I don't want to grill it, microwave it or boil it in sauce, I just want to turn in nice hot pork to the judges. What's so wrong about that ?
Fine. Here's your no wiggle room pork rule:
Legal pork shall consist of IMPS shoulder #403 and it's derivatives ( 403B, 403C, 404, 406, 406B, 406C, and 407) where the animal has been broken no further rostral than Cervical vertebra C3 and no further caudal than thoracic vertebra T1 (the first rostral rib). Pork must have a minimum raw post trim weight of 5 pounds. Pork must be cooked whole and intact. Butterflying, fileting,or separating (defined at cutting out a specific muscle and leaving a minimal attachment to other muscle groups) muscles prior to or during the cook is prohibited (Caution; while boneless butts / roasts are allowed, they are subject to the same parting and trimming standards as bone in products.) . Once the pork is removed from the cooker and any portion of the pork is cut, sliced, pulled or removed no part of the pork may be returned to the cooker until after the pork turn in window closes.

It preserves the original spirit of pork bbq, is clear and enforceable.

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Any bbq restaurant you go to holds their pulled pork in some type of warmer, they don't just pull it and leave it sitting on the counter. If you went to a restaurant and got cold pork I'm sure you wouldn't be very pleased. I've heard people say judges shouldn't mark down if it's cold. Why not ? It shouldn't be cold.
I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging, piece selection and finally sampling and judging it's going to be a lukewarm sample at best. This applies to all turn ins, not just pork. There just isn't enough thermal mass in each sample piece to retain the heat.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:54 AM   #97
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[QUOTE=Slamdunkpro;2703259

I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging, piece selection and finally sampling and judging it's going to be a lukewarm sample at best. This applies to all turn ins, not just pork. There just isn't enough thermal mass in each sample piece to retain the heat.[/QUOTE]

Luke warm is a hell of a lot better than cold. Thus putting it in the box as hot as you can is a really good start. Many cooks carry their turn in containers in an insulated carrier. Several preheat that carrier. You think maybe there's a reason for that ??
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:03 AM   #98
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Luke warm is a hell of a lot better than cold. Thus putting it in the box as hot as you can is a really good start. Many cooks carry their turn in containers in an insulated carrier. Several preheat that carrier. You think maybe there's a reason for that ??
I agree - we try to have everything in the box as hot as possible and we use an insulated carrier. When we box our pork it's so hot we have to use insulated gloves to handle it - no reheating or additional cooker time required. It's a cooking skill issue, why are you trying to reduce the skill required?
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:26 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro View Post
I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging, piece selection and finally sampling and judging it's going to be a lukewarm sample at best. This applies to all turn ins, not just pork. There just isn't enough thermal mass in each sample piece to retain the heat.
You can call him a lot of things, but disingenuous isn't one of them.

You may not agree with him. But he's always been straightforward and honest with me, and anybody else I know that is familiar with him.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:53 AM   #100
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You can call him a lot of things, but disingenuous isn't one of them.

You may not agree with him. But he's always been straightforward and honest with me, and anybody else I know that is familiar with him.
I don't find Steve disingenuous but I find that particular oft repeated argument so. Specious might be a better word.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:22 PM   #101
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Luke warm is a hell of a lot better than cold. Thus putting it in the box as hot as you can is a really good start. Many cooks carry their turn in containers in an insulated carrier. Several preheat that carrier. You think maybe there's a reason for that ??
If a cook has cold pork at turn in they should go home and practice and whatever score they get that day is well deserved. Before you bring it up, I have been there and done that!

Why should the other teams be put at a disadvantage because they were able to put hot pork in their turn in box?
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:35 PM   #102
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I don't find Steve disingenuous but I find that particular oft repeated argument so. Specious might be a better word.
I get it. When I was elected I actually wanted to open the category up to "pork" and turn cooks loose. Then I looked at the ramifications more closely and listened to a couple of people that suggested we needed pork to be a long cook since chicken and ribs were either on short timelines or timelines that were shrinking.

MABA may be different, but when you get elected to the KCBS BoD you need to accept the fact that you are wrong. Nobody calls or emails when you did something right. Nobody calls or emails when you ask for input. If something goes south people will come out of the woodwork when you've made a decisions on something that you've already asked for input on.

I give Steve and Dave all the credit in the world for being willing to step out and listen and take the heat. Heat that isn't necessarily from you.

I added Thanks to Podge's post about just voting the damn thing. I don't agree with the new rule, but it might just get cooks pissed off enough to give a chit. Steve is a cook, and a great cook. He may not agree with the input he's given but I've got no doubt he'd consider it and take the input to the committee and BoD. Being elected to the BoD doesn't invest anyone with ESP to know what the cooks are thinking. Maybe this will be a catalyst to encourage communication from the bottom up. If not, cooks can continue to bitch and whine, which will happen no matter what the BoD does.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:21 PM   #103
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He just talks funny...
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:50 PM   #104
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Just like the US elected government officials, if you don't like what they're doing, then vote on someone you agree with at the next election.

Tell ya what would make for an interesting polling question for potential canidates for next election, is to he how they specifically feel about the potential pork rules and what they believe in and would vote for. Indirectly, the voting membership would then have a vote for the person on what they believe in for the pork rule. (not saying the pork rule is the one and only hot topic of discussion, but damn, I can't remember the last time something like this has dragged on and on and on. Again, this ain't a consensus, it's a vote by our elected board members!)
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Old 11-22-2013, 04:56 PM   #105
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I get it. When I was elected I actually wanted to open the category up to "pork" and turn cooks loose. Then I looked at the ramifications more closely and listened to a couple of people that suggested we needed pork to be a long cook since chicken and ribs were either on short timelines or timelines that were shrinking.

MABA may be different, but when you get elected to the KCBS BoD you need to accept the fact that you are wrong. Nobody calls or emails when you did something right. Nobody calls or emails when you ask for input. If something goes south people will come out of the woodwork when you've made a decisions on something that you've already asked for input on.

I give Steve and Dave all the credit in the world for being willing to step out and listen and take the heat. Heat that isn't necessarily from you.

I added Thanks to Podge's post about just voting the damn thing. I don't agree with the new rule, but it might just get cooks pissed off enough to give a chit. Steve is a cook, and a great cook. He may not agree with the input he's given but I've got no doubt he'd consider it and take the input to the committee and BoD. Being elected to the BoD doesn't invest anyone with ESP to know what the cooks are thinking. Maybe this will be a catalyst to encourage communication from the bottom up. If not, cooks can continue to bitch and whine, which will happen no matter what the BoD does.
Let's hold on a sec, this isn't personal on my end nor is it whining or sour grapes. As for input to the BOD, I've tried to do that in a constructive way. I had a conversation with Candy about this at Sam's and asked her who was replacing Jeff as head of Competition since he resigned - She said no one is. Now we don't know who is on the competition committee or who if anyone is chairing it and we're coming down to the wire on 2014. I'm not trying to speak for Mike Peters here but it appears that he recognized that the pork rule that is scheduled to take effect next year is flawed and I applaud him for stepping up and taking the heat for that.

It seems to me that this whole thing is boiling down to one vocal group who wants to be able to cut up their pork butt; another group that doesn't, a bunch who don't really care and the last group (which I'm in) doesn't really care except that we want the rule to be clear with little wiggle room and we don't want the category dumbed down.

If the Board changes the pork rule, cut / no cut / whatever, it's going to impact a lot of people and with the spotlight on BBQ the way it is right now the last thing KCBS needs is a new rule with acres of grey open to interpretation and shenanigans.

I also want to apologize to Steve Farrin if I in any way implied that he was dishonest or not dealing above board. I wasn't.
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