Time to stir the kcbs bod pot again!!

[Jeff_in_KC]

Originally Posted by tmcmaster

The first candidate with the 'cajones' to stand for that gets my vote.

I don't disagree with the CBJs in line for Master Judge having to do this (and not just hang out on Friday night) but it would be a logistical nightmare to have to require ALL judges to "cook" with a team. And would you grandfather all of the current judges? There are many thousands of them.

I'm not positive what folks are trying to accomplish by wanting CBJs to cook with a team first. Understanding what we as cooks do and spend is not the issue. There are hundreds of great judges who have never cooked with a team. If you're just trying to make them understand what we do and what it takes, I believe a majority know already. Cooking with you and knowing you spent $800 to be there doesn't justify them giving you higher scores OR to take their job any more seriously. As we have improved over the last seven years we've been doing this, not one judge has cooked with us and no one I know of has given us a better score because they understand our side of things.

The important thing here is to build relationships with judges, just as Dave Compton proposes. It's also urgent that we put a continuing education and/or refresher program into place that allows judges to keep up to date with current rules and clarifications of said rules. It's also important that we start up a judges forum, like the Reps have. These will allow judges to be more a part of things in KCBS and maybe the end result is that they feel wanted and that they are an important part of the process, and thus, the judges people think don't take their jobs seriously enough will actually do so.

[Jorge]

Originally Posted by tmcmaster

The first candidate with the 'cajones' to stand for that gets my vote.

Based purely on numbers and admin costs I've got a problem with this. KCBS trained approximately 2,800 judges this year. If you assume that pairing a judge with a team, recording their completion of the process, etc....taking between 30 and 60 seconds you are looking at 23-46 man hours. Now if you want to figure out how to bring existing judges into compliance...

Simple cost/benefit analysis for me. I just don't see enough upside, regardless of how I look at it. If you've got the problems solved let me know. I'll support it if you can show me a realistic way to make the benefits outweigh the costs. Otherwise I've got to say no.

[Tarheel]

Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC

I don't disagree with the CBJs in line for Master Judge having to do this (and not just hang out on Friday night) but it would be a logistical nightmare to have to require ALL judges to "cook" with a team. And would you grandfather all of the current judges? There are many thousands of them.

I'm not positive what folks are trying to accomplish by wanting CBJs to cook with a team first. Understanding what we as cooks do and spend is not the issue. There are hundreds of great judges who have never cooked with a team. If you're just trying to make them understand what we do and what it takes, I believe a majority know already. Cooking with you and knowing you spent $800 to be there doesn't justify them giving you higher scores OR to take their job any more seriously. As we have improved over the last seven years we've been doing this, not one judge has cooked with us and no one I know of has given us a better score because they understand our side of things.

The important thing here is to build relationships with judges, just as Dave Compton proposes. It's also urgent that we put a continuing education and/or refresher program into place that allows judges to keep up to date with current rules and clarifications of said rules. It's also important that we start up a judges forum, like the Reps have. These will allow judges to be more a part of things in KCBS and maybe the end result is that they feel wanted and that they are an important part of the process, and thus, the judges people think don't take their jobs seriously enough will actually do so.

Jeff, I am one that thinks judges should cook with a team earlier, I do believe it will give them a better understanding of the whole system and all aspects of the cooking process. Understanding how much it takes to do this I would hope would give them a littler more respect for it as well. I can't understand what an indivuale goes thru untill I have been in his shoes.

I would also agree that we need more ways becides that to get them involved and we need better training and they need to be held accountable for there scores as well. I have said before there needs to be accountablility on there part. If they are consitantly scoring low or high there needs to be some sort of recorse for the table captain and rep both to use.

[Jeff_in_KC]

Originally Posted by Tarheel

Jeff, I am one that thinks judges should cook with a team earlier, I do believe it will give them a better understanding of the whole system and all aspects of the cooking process. Understanding how much it takes to do this I would hope would give them a littler more respect for it as well. I can't understand what an indivuale goes thru untill I have been in his shoes.

I would also agree that we need more ways becides that to get them involved and we need better training and they need to be held accountable for there scores as well. I have said before there needs to be accountablility on there part. If they are consitantly scoring low or high there needs to be some sort of recorse for the table captain and rep both to use.

I respect your opinion but I think there are better ways to accomplish what you're asking to have accomplished. How about having as part of CBJ training classes a cook come in and present a summary of what it takes to get ready for a competition. To be quite honest, once a team arrives at a contest site, MOST of the work for the contest is already over and there's no way to impress that upon a judge other that to tell him, something that could be handled at CBJ classes. Having a judge stay up half the night at a contest, watch me stress out and sweat while cleaning up isn't going to make anyone better understand. I think the right approach as part of a CBJ class would have the same effect. Have the team presenting add photos on a slide show, talk about the 15 to 20 hours spent before even arriving (searching for meat, buying rubs, sauces, etc, trimming, packing, loading, laundry, and the list goes on), a breakdown of the cost involved and so forth. Then the CBJ instructors come in and tell the trainees "We don't tell you all of this as sort of a sob story. We tell you these things because, as you've just seen, the competitions you will be judging are costly, time consuming and physically and mentally draining for those who cook them and they deserve your absolute best efforts and fair assessments of their product they present to you. You, as CBJs, are important links in the entire process so it it vital that you take your jobs seriously. Let's get busy and learn to be CBJs!"

I'd rather see something to that effect at all CBJ classes and maybe make a video of the presentation and speech by trainers for the new online forum I know CBJs will get so that current CBJs can watch it!

[Rookie'48]

I still think that cooking with a team is a very good thing - and that every judge should do it at least a couple of times with different teams.

There's no amount of video that can show what "crunch time" really is. I don't think that anyone, anywhere, can adequately describe the near chaos of building and running boxes every half hour with only a ten minute window to make it.

There's also no way to describe the camaraderie that goes on at a contest or the way that you will feel when you see a friend get a call.

You might be able to distill all of this down into a video or a presentation - but it ain't gonna be the same as being there .

[Jeff_in_KC]

Originally Posted by Rookie'48

I still think that cooking with a team is a very good thing - and that every judge should do it at least a couple of times with different teams.

There's no amount of video that can show what "crunch time" really is. I don't think that anyone, anywhere, can adequately describe the near chaos of building and running boxes every half hour with only a ten minute window to make it.

There's also no way to describe the camaraderie that goes on at a contest or the way that you will feel when you see a friend get a call.

You might be able to distill all of this down into a video or a presentation - but it ain't gonna be the same as being there .

I agree with you, Dave, that just cooking with a team is good but you are one of the best judges there is out there. Do you REALLY think it would make a big difference in scores and how seriously some judges take this just to have them cook with a team once? I think the point could be gotten across with a little extra and thinking outside the box kind of training. That being said, it never hurts to host a judge, simply to build relationships. But requiring it of ALL judges would be a nightmare.

[Rookie'48]

Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC

That being said, it never hurts to host a judge, simply to build relationships. But requiring it of ALL judges would be a nightmare.

That's a very good reason to offer some type of award to those judges who take it upon themselves to search out and find a team that is willing to do this.

Right now we have a system where you can take the CBJ class and never cook with a team at all unless you wish to get that Master's badge. You take the class once and pay your dues for the next ten years and you're still a "qualified" CBJ ten years later - even if you have forgotten everything that you were taught in class and have only judged once in that ten year period .

I'm all about getting the judges ALL of the tools that they need in order to become the very best judges in our sport / hobby / obsession. I want to see the KCBS CBJs held in the highest esteem every place where there's a BBQ contest.

I'd like to see judges and cooks shooting together towards a common goal of being the best of the best in the world of BBQ.

And I'm more than willing to hear any and all suggestions on how we can do this .

[Tarheel]

Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC

I respect your opinion but I think there are better ways to accomplish what you're asking to have accomplished. How about having as part of CBJ training classes a cook come in and present a summary of what it takes to get ready for a competition. To be quite honest, once a team arrives at a contest site, MOST of the work for the contest is already over and there's no way to impress that upon a judge other that to tell him, something that could be handled at CBJ classes. Having a judge stay up half the night at a contest, watch me stress out and sweat while cleaning up isn't going to make anyone better understand. I think the right approach as part of a CBJ class would have the same effect. Have the team presenting add photos on a slide show, talk about the 15 to 20 hours spent before even arriving (searching for meat, buying rubs, sauces, etc, trimming, packing, loading, laundry, and the list goes on), a breakdown of the cost involved and so forth. Then the CBJ instructors come in and tell the trainees "We don't tell you all of this as sort of a sob story. We tell you these things because, as you've just seen, the competitions you will be judging are costly, time consuming and physically and mentally draining for those who cook them and they deserve your absolute best efforts and fair assessments of their product they present to you. You, as CBJs, are important links in the entire process so it it vital that you take your jobs seriously. Let's get busy and learn to be CBJs!"

I'd rather see something to that effect at all CBJ classes and maybe make a video of the presentation and speech by trainers for the new online forum I know CBJs will get so that current CBJs can watch it!

I can see that, I have helped at several CBJ classes over the years, one of my requirements for helping is that I get to talk to them for 5 min. to explain those things and to answer questions. I have done it in Lakeland for the past several years but Steven doesn't seem to like that. I think way to much infaces is put on looking for the things that can dq a cook in some of the classes and the trays are out of date. Have been for years. but that is another subject.

But I can also see the requirement for judges to spend time talking to cooks at an event. I don't think it would be hard to start a pilot program that cost nothing and is tracked with the judges book where it has to be signed by a cook team. Something that requires them to get out and talk to teams to get that signature. There could still be a list of teams willing to partisipate in the program listed on the judges forum that needs to be developed. They would have to have those signatures prior to a designated number of contest. It could be an intermediat level of judge that has that completed. They would be responsoable for showing the signature to a rep at a contest who enters it into a tracking program.

[mobow]

I am not in favor of requiring judges to cook with a team. But, if you do require it I think you should also require teams to host a judge to help remove the burden of findingna team that i's willing. But, I do not see any advantage of a judge understanding the hardship of cooking helping them be more consistent in scoring. My experience cooking with a team was a very positive experience but I actually discovered it was easier to do than I had thought. As far a judging I don't care how much time or money or lack of sleep the team has invested. It is irrelevant. All that is relevant is the quality of the turn in and that i's where I think time and energy should be spent. Helping all judges be consistent on what we are judging. Also,everyone i's not the social butterfly like Dave Compton. Keith

[Rookie'48]

Originally Posted by mobow

Also,everyone i's not the social butterfly like Dave Compton. Keith

I'll plead guilty as charged to that one, Keith .

And I love being out & about visiting with the teams on Friday and staying for the awards on Saturday. It helps that I'm retired and don't have to be at work when I'd rather be at a comp and I realize that a lot of folks (ok, most folks ) don't have that opportunity . Most of the time I'd rather be cooking instead of visiting but seeing as how that's physically imposable any more I'll just be a social butterfly .

One of my life's little pleasures has been to be standing next to a team that has had a judge cook with them at that contest. The judge has seen every box before turn in. He has tasted the very same meat that was turned in. He/she has mentally judged those boxes and given them the score that they feel was earned for each box, to the very best of that judge's ability.

And when the score sheets are passed around the team and that judge reads the scores and says: "What the fark were those judges thinkin'? Are they crazy???" that's what you call an "Ah ha!" moment. How can it be that the very same box that he just gave a 9-9-8 to came back as a 7-7-7 ?

That's when said judge thinks long and hard about what the cook is trying to accomplish and scoring in general. I think that this is something that some judges either never knew or have forgotten. And I think that is something that we, as judges, should keep in mind.

[Fat Freddy]

WOW almost sounds like being a judge is a bad, evil thing.

I started judging backyard contests and enjoyed it, became a certified judge and loved it. Do I still have a lot to learn, absolutely I do, but I do try to learn and am not afraid to ask. I then decided to try my hands at competing. I have learned even more and I love it too. But I have done these things because I WANTED TO, not because I was required.

Do I think ALL judges need a refresher course? and do would I like more info whether email or whatever on rule changes or clarifications? A big YES to both. But to say a person has to cook with a team just to become a judge I disagree with. For one many people dont want to cook or have any desire to learn that aspect but they take the judging very seriously. Also who is to determine what teams have judge prospects help them? If all teams were not involved then things are not fair for the competing teams. I mean many teams teach classes and earn money teaching people their techniques but now it is being suggested that someone that wants to be a judge can by a KCBS requirement cook with a team and learn that teams techniques???? I could be wrong but I would think that teams would hold back when a "stranger" is in their cooking area and that would put those teams at a disadvantage. If I am wrong, I am a certified judge can I PICK which teams I want to cook with surely I can learn something from them.

Again I have no problem with helping judges learn but I feel that judges are being slammed a bit much.

I wonder how a KCBS contest would go without any judges and just cooks?

[Rookie'48]

Originally Posted by Fat Freddy

WOW almost sounds like being a judge is a bad, evil thing. Nope, not at all! I don't think that anyone has said that (yet, anyway ).

Do I think ALL judges need a refresher course? and do would I like more info whether email or whatever on rule changes or clarifications? A big YES to both. Yes, yes, yes - continuing education will help us all!

But to say a person has to cook with a team just to become a judge I disagree with. I agree that no one should be forced to do that although anyone who WANTS to should be able to and be recognized for it.

I could be wrong but I would think that teams would hold back when a "stranger" is in their cooking area and that would put those teams at a disadvantage. I'm not real sure about that because most of the "secrets" are in the rubs, injections and sauces not in the process itself. But if part of the process is part of the "secret" then they either shouldn't have the judge there or just not let him/her see the "voo-doo". Also, the primary "secret" is consistency - and you only get that with practice, practice, practice.


I wonder how a KCBS contest would go without any judges and just cooks? Then they'd just call it an IBCA contest .

Notice that I'm stressing that cooking with a team in voluntary on both the judges' and the cooks' part. But I think that it's a good thing to do.

[Tarheel]

Well I think we have got the judge thing stired up good.There are some options and we can all agree that some of those options need to done sooner rather than later.

Now for another topic, what are your views on the sanctioning of contest. It seems to be that the current board has been using a rubber stamp for the most part without reguard for existing contest or weither or not a contest is ready. Examples would be approving contest where there is just not enough teams to support it. Should there be closer attention paid to other factors to ensure a sucssesful contest by the kcbs or just approve it and collect the money.

[Ron_L]

Originally Posted by Rookie'48

And when the score sheets are passed around the team and that judge reads the scores and says: "What the fark were those judges thinkin'? Are they crazy???" that's what you call an "Ah ha!" moment. How can it be that the very same box that he just gave a 9-9-8 to came back as a 7-7-7 ?

That's exactly what happened both time that we had a judge cook with us Normally it is me saying that We saw one of the judges at a competition a couple of weeks later and he told us that he couldn't sleep for three days after the competition because he was thinking about the scores.

We've known both the these guys for a while, and while I haven't judged with either of them, I am confident that they are good judges. Did cooking with us change the way that they scored? Probably not, but it got them thinking about it and opened their eyes.

I haven't read every post in this thread or the other BOD election threads, but one thing that is being discussed at the Great Lakes BBQ Association Forum is how changes in the CBJ class over the years effects scoring.

One of the guys brought up this point...

The first thing I see is that the KCBS is no longer giving a starting point and asking to mark down/up from there. That has been the case since at least 2009 when we held our judging class in Royal Oak. For point of reference, when I took the CBJ class in 2006 we were told to start at 6 and go up/down from there. The reason for not giving a starting point is it puts in the mind of a judge that is the number. Mike Lake has said that when they used 9 as the starting point KCBS saw a record number of 180's, when they used the 6 they saw a record number of low scores...

To me, the change from giving a starting point leaves judges without a reference, and i think that's why we see scores all over the board. Plus, you have judges who learned to judge using 9 as a reference, judges who learned using 6 as a reference and newer judges who don't use any reference. That by itself can cause a big difference. I think the one thing that would help is yearly renewals for judges that includes a short refresher course and test that can be taken on line. If a judge doesn't complete the course their CBJ status is revoked. Organizers would have to verify current status for CBJs, but that could also be done on line.

[Leatherheadiowa]

Originally Posted by Tarheel

Well I think we have got the judge thing stired up good.There are some options and we can all agree that some of those options need to done sooner rather than later.

Now for another topic, what are your views on the sanctioning of contest. It seems to be that the current board has been using a rubber stamp for the most part without reguard for existing contest or weither or not a contest is ready. Examples would be approving contest where there is just not enough teams to support it. Should there be closer attention paid to other factors to ensure a sucssesful contest by the kcbs or just approve it and collect the money.

I think that sanctioning needs to be closely examined. It was brought to my attention that in the past few years KCBS has sanctioned contests here in the Iowa area on identical dates and these contests now split the number of
competitors and judges. I also know that some contests knowingly distort their accomodations and available amenities and at some point KCBS needs to help correct these issues when they have been reported to KCBS. When sanctioning is requested an indepth inquiry needs to be made for inaugural events and for repeat events the BOD needs to make sure past issues have been resolved.
I am working with a contest organizer on a newly sanctioned contest. Having
been to her unsanctioned event that was governed by KCBS rules and was very successful I have been helping to guide her as to what services and amenities will be the best received and will make her virgin KCBS contest a
good one. She and I have carefully examined a bunch of, What if this happens? and When this happens what will you do, type scenarios.
Flooding the market has never worked for an organization that wanted to grow, keep people engaged, and yet have some sense of honor in belonging.
As an example, Ducks Unlimited used to have a chapter in every county and that chapter's events were exclusive to that area. Now Ducks Unlimited will allow a chapter on every corner and now members are asked to choose between which fundraisers to host, which to attend, how much to give, and where the struggle for leadership will end.
Finally, protecting the contests that have been proven winners, and closely
screening and double checking those that want to host need to be a priority in the future of the KCBS.