Making Kielbasa question

I would assume if you reheated it would be good but I don't know about cold later.

I would like to see your results.

I would compare it to Pulled Pork vs BBB or capicola. If it's cooked, it's cooked, but has a limitted shelf life. If you cure it, it will be safer longer and have a different flavour. You would also want to skip any long curing steps if you don't use nitrogen.

dmp

sure it would be safe.....as long as you didnt let it linger in smoker at lower temps...like say 120 or so for any length of time. Basically you are just cooking it. Personally, I'm not sure how good it would be cold....might be kinda "greasy". The only sausage i'd eat cold would be like snack sticks or "dried" sausages.
my 2 cents

dmprantz said:

I would compare it to Pulled Pork vs BBB or capicola. If it's cooked, it's cooked, but has a limitted shelf life. If you cure it, it will be safer longer and have a different flavour. You would also want to skip any long curing steps if you don't use nitrogen.

dmp

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boatnut said:

sure it would be safe.....as long as you didnt let it linger in smoker at lower temps...like say 120 or so for any length of time. Basically you are just cooking it. Personally, I'm not sure how good it would be cold....might be kinda "greasy". The only sausage i'd eat cold would be like snack sticks or "dried" sausages.
my 2 cents

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Yep!

You need the curing salt to stop bacterial growth and the resultant toxins the bacteria releases when the meat temp lingers between 40 and 140 too long. Four hours maximum between these temps. The four hours are cumulative. You need to include the time the meat is above 40 deg f when grinding, stuffing and drying in addition to the smoke time. When smoking it is easy to have these temps occur for that time or longer. If you get the internal temp of the sausage over 140 deg. f in under 4 hours you don't need the curing salt. Keep in mind that the curing salt also keeps the sausage that nice red color we all love (think artificial smoke ring). Without it, you will have gray sausage. Good luck!

NUTZ

yelonutz said:

You need the curing salt to stop bacterial growth and the resultant toxins the bacteria releases when the meat temp lingers between 40 and 140 too long. Four hours maximum between these temps. The four hours are cumulative. You need to include the time the meat is above 40 deg f when grinding, stuffing and drying in addition to the smoke time. When smoking it is easy to have these temps occur for that time or longer. If you get the internal temp of the sausage over 140 deg. f in under 4 hours you don't need the curing salt. Keep in mind that the curing salt also keeps the sausage that nice red color we all love (think artificial smoke ring). Without it, you will have gray sausage. Good luck!

NUTZ

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I was just wondering, but if you bring up internal temp to 170 (or medium to medium well) wouldn't it kill any bacteria that may have devloped? And if so, is it then a big deal if you meat was in the 40-140 for more then 4 hours (within reason) if higher temp will kill it?

Also anyone ever heard of any ill effects if you miscalculate and put too much cure (salt + nitrates or nitrites)

Thanks!

pomah25 said:

I was just wondering, but if you bring up internal temp to 170 (or medium to medium well) wouldn't it kill any bacteria that may have devloped? And if so, is it then a big deal if you meat was in the 40-140 for more then 4 hours (within reason) if higher temp will kill it?

Also anyone ever heard of any ill effects if you miscalculate and put too much cure (salt + nitrates or nitrites)

Thanks!

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The bacteria can form toxins that will stay there after the beasties are killed by the heat. too much nitrates and/or nitrites can be poisnious especially for young children.

pomah25 said:

I was just wondering, but if you bring up internal temp to 170 (or medium to medium well) wouldn't it kill any bacteria that may have devloped? And if so, is it then a big deal if you meat was in the 40-140 for more then 4 hours (within reason) if higher temp will kill it?

Also anyone ever heard of any ill effects if you miscalculate and put too much cure (salt + nitrates or nitrites)

Thanks!

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While the bad guys are growing in there they "Pee" a lot. You can kill them off with heat but the "Pee" stays. One of the forms of "Pee" is "Botulism".
Also, most people don't like grey sausage or Pastrami.

NUTZ

There is so much misunderstanding about definition of Polish Sausage that I would like to uncover some of the mystery...

People in Poland are not going to say "sausage" - they are going to say "Kielbasa". There is not one universal sausage (kielbasa) - I have a list of 55 different sausages made in Poland so which one are we talking about ? We are talking about Polish Smoked Sausage (Polska Kielbasa Wedzona) and a poor imitation of this sausage can be found in every supermarket in the USA.

What we see here in supermarkets has NOTHING to do with the real polish sausage. It is embarassing to look at the ingredients list. Let me clarify a few points :

1. The Polish Sausage is made entirely of pork . There are sausages like "Mysliwska" (Hunter's sausage) that are made with pork and beef, nevertheless the traditional Polish Smoked Sausage is made of pork and the following : salt, pepper, sugar, garlic and majoram. Majoram could be eliminated but garlic has to stay.

This is how this sausage was supposed to be made as recommended by the Polish Government in 1958. Yes, the way meat products were made (especially ones for export) was regulated by the Government, down to the last technical detail.

2. It comes in two versions :

a. Fresh sausage

b. Smoked sausage - this is the Polish Smoked Sausage (Polska Kielbasa Wedzona) that everybody eats in Poland.

To buy real stuff you have to live in New York or Chicago where it can be obtained in meat stores located in Polish neighborhoods. It becomes harder to buy it even in Poland as the present meat industry in order to stay competetive is following american production standards (lower costs and lower quality) and includes the never ending list of chemicals. The final effect is product that resembles the original sausage in name only and not in quality.

Polish Smoked Sausage is made from ingredients mentioned above plus sodium nitrite (you don't smoke anything without sodium nitrite). Frankly speaking I don't understand why our FDA hates so much use of potassium nitrate - in Poland they have used it for ages and it is still in use today. And nobody dies. After all, both of them are very powerful poisons

3. It is stuffed into large casing : about 38 mmm.

4. It has to be smoked (hot smoke) for 2 - 3 hours, this is the only way to get the proper flavor and color and believe me : liquid smoke does not do the trick.

Recommended way is to cold smoke it for 1 to 1.5 days but that will be done probably only by the most demanding purists. Besides, unless you live up North, it is not easy to generate cold smoke.

Rytek Kutas in his book "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing" got it almost right, except for "soy protein concentrate" (it has no room in a decent sausage - if you want the highest quality). We are not talking profits here - we are talking the best quality one can get. Anything besides pork, salt, pepper, sugar, garlic and majoram has no right to be there. Though of Polish parents, I don't believe he was ever in Poland himself as he misspells almost every Polish sausage name he writes about. Otherwise it is the best english book to learn the art of sausage making.

You can of course add anything you like to your sausage but it will not be Polish Smoked Sausage (Polska Kielbasa Wedzona) anymore. Come up with your own name.

A little curiosity : In Poland to obtain the highest quality possible, the meat to be used for sausages is first cut into about 2 inches pieces and then pickled in brine solution (salt plus some sodium nitrite) for about 48 - 72 hours. After that : Grinding, mixing, stuffing, smoking according to established rules. A commercial sausage factory can not find room, time or money to pickle meat for 48 hours before it goes into the grinder.

All these little details, call them tricks of trade if you will, separate super quality product from its commercial version. That is why a home based sausage maker, having necessary technical knowledge will always make a better sausage than his commercial counterpart as he has all time in the world to do it well

http://www.thesmokering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88

Interesting idea in that other thread about curing the meat before you grind it...

Thanks for the highly informative post, Mike.

Personally, I'd like to see stricter standards on things. Last I recall, there was a certain percentage of hot dog that could be rat chit. That number was higher than zero.

ZERO is the highest percentage of rat chit I want in my hot dogs.

Crazy Harry said:

The bacteria can form toxins that will stay there after the beasties are killed by the heat. too much nitrates and/or nitrites can be poisonous especially for young children.

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Great... that's not, good. How can you tell by if you have too many nitrates/nitrites? Can you tell by flavor/smell of meat?

I used curing salt (pink salt), 1 oz of it is enough for 25lbs of meat. I was curing 4.5 pound pork shoulder. For first rub i used about 1/3 of a table spoon (with other spices) then half way through (about 5 day) i added re applied the rub and additional 1/3 of table spoon of cure. Wanted to be safe and make sure i had good coverage? After nine days, soaked in water for two hours.

Does that sound like too much?

WabbitSwayer said:

Here's what I would do, measure the weight of 1/3T of the cure you used. That will tell you how much and if you used to much. Though because it was a rub, some of it won't make it into your system, better be safe than sorry. Out of curiosity, why did you cure the shoulder?

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I was making buckboard bacon. 2 tbs is an oz. 2/3rds of a tbs is more then required for that amount of meat. I was just wondering if its too much, to the point its not safe to eat.