Judging questions...

[tmcmaster]

As a newly (like in the last 2 hours) minted CBJ, I have a few questions that I didn't think were answered by our instructor... maybe someone form the group can help a newb out...

1 - When judging appearence, how much does.should garnish or lack of weigh in your score? Does it or could it be looked up as a 'marked box' if no garnish is there?

2 - Does the texture of the brisket change so dramatically if it is pulled/chopped that it could create an illusion of properly cooked beef, if it is overcooked?

3 - Would there ever be an instance where there were only 5 judges at a table?

I will post others if anyone is so kind as to answer these for a newb.

Thanks!

[Stoke&Smoke]

Originally Posted by tmcmaster

As a newly (like in the last 2 hours) minted CBJ, I have a few questions that I didn't think were answered by our instructor... maybe someone form the group can help a newb out...

1 - When judging appearence, how much does.should garnish or lack of weigh in your score? Does it or could it be looked up as a 'marked box' if no garnish is there? KCBS does not require garnish, so no, it wouldn't be a marked box if no garnish. If the use of garnish makes the meat look more appealing, judge appropriately. Same as if it's sloppy or haphazard. Remember though, it's a meat contest, not a greens contest!

2 - Does the texture of the brisket change so dramatically if it is pulled/chopped that it could create an illusion of properly cooked beef, if it is overcooked?
It could. Overcooked brisket will likely be dried out, and also may not hold together. Your class intructor probably made mention of a pull test. Also, remember, the classes all recommend pencil thickness, but it isn't' a requirement. If it's sliced thicker, it could mean it's overcooked and the team is trying to keep it from falling apart, or it could just be a thick slice. Let your tastebuds tell you. Same with undercooked, If it's paper thin, it might be because it's undercooked

3 - Would there ever be an instance where there were only 5 judges at a table?

Yes, sometimes. There needs to be 1 judge per team cooking, so sometimes a table will have fewer than 6 judges

I will post others if anyone is so kind as to answer these for a newb.

Thanks!

Just a personal opinion, but, to be a better judge, see if you can talk a local team in your area to let you cook with them. Send a weekend seeing what they do, what they go through, and learn what all has to be done by cooks. It will bring you a better level of understanding the whole process.

Have fun judging!

[Gowan]

I have to correct the above poster. There is NEVER an instance where there will be more or less than 6 judges at a table. The number of entries that reach a table may vary, but never the number of judges scoring an entry. If the number of scores received by a team were allowed to change there would be no way to evaluate the scores and fairly select a winner under the KCBS system.

[Meat Burner]

I absolutely disagree with you Civil. I have judged at contests that didn't have enough for 6 entries at all tables and only 5 judges participated. Never will be more that 6 but definately can be 5 judges.

[Gowan]

These were KCBS sanctioned events? I'd like to know exactly where and when these contests occurred and who was repping them. Please explain to me how scores can be compared when Team A receives scores from 5 judges and Team B receives scores from 6 judges?

It is not uncommon for a table to get 5 or 7 entries as the number of teams to tables doesn't always divide evenly. The only problem this poses is some judges may have more or less to eat than expected. Having an entry receive marks by less than six judges however breaks the scoring system. In that situation you employ table captains, volunteers or recruit folks from the public to judge, but entries should never be receiving only 5 scores in a KCBS sanctioned event.

[ModelMaker]

I don't think I've ever seen a table that wasn't 6 judges, but have been at tables that had less than six samples per catagory.

Tim, it's good to ask questions, and remember other than the printed rule it is best to write down a question and personnaly ask the KCBS rep in charge at any given contest. Not that you won't get a correct answer here but the only true answer every time is from the rep.
Good luck in your judging this summer and thanks for stepping up and volenteering.
Ed

[Gowan]

For clarification, from the KCBS 2010 Official Rules, Judging Procedures Rule #2:

Judging will be done by a team of 6 persons, who are at least 16 years of age.

[monty3777]

Originally Posted by tmcmaster

2 - Does the texture of the brisket change so dramatically if it is pulled/chopped that it could create an illusion of properly cooked beef, if it is overcooked?

This is one issue that I feel strongly about so I'll comment. I think judges must do their absolute best to not "guess" why something is presented the way it is. I know that someone somewhere decided that a slice of brisket must be the width of a pencil - and that's what I'll give the judges. However, I think that the determination of whether or not brisket is properly cooked can only come from tasting it and checking the texture. If a judge is already judging whether the brisket is over/under cooked at the appearance stage of judging the cook is already screwed.

If the cook wishes to present pulled or chopped brisket then perhaps that's because it is a better product when served that way. Won't know until you taste it.

(getting off my soapbox).

[Meat Burner]

I no longer absolutely disagree We were only given 5 samples to judge and all 6 judges got 5 samples. I took toothpics and mocked boxes and judges scorecards and then realized I was absolutely wrong. My bad. Civil is correct so please listen to him and delete my responses.

[Gowan]

No worries man. Everybody makes a mistake from time to time (my two ex-wives prove I sure do!) Please don't take my response as jumping on you - I was just shocked to think a Rep would allow this to happen and didn't want a new CBJ to start out with a misconception.

[Meat Burner]

It fine Civil. Didn't take it wrong at all. Just a brother helping another brother! Appreciate ya!

[Rookie'48]

Originally Posted by monty3777

I think judges must do their absolute best to not "guess" why something is presented the way it is..... If a judge is already judging whether the brisket is over/under cooked at the appearance stage of judging the cook is already screwed.

If the cook wishes to present pulled or chopped brisket then perhaps that's because it is a better product when served that way. Won't know until you taste it.

(getting off my soapbox).

I feel that we are supposed to judge each entry "as presented by the cook". For the appearance scoring the judges should only be judging the appearance of the meat, not speculating on why it was presented that way. For myself, a 9 in appearance means that I want to rip that box out of the TC's hands & dig right in. I grade down from there.
On everything but ribs you can turn in chopped, pulled, sliced - whatever you feel is your best shot. I'm going to judge you on what is in the box, not what I wish was there. Then again, I'm kinda strange that way. YMMV

[Mo-Dave]

Originally Posted by monty3777

This is one issue that I feel strongly about so I'll comment. I think judges must do their absolute best to not "guess" why something is presented the way it is. I know that someone somewhere decided that a slice of brisket must be the width of a pencil - and that's what I'll give the judges. However, I think that the determination of whether or not brisket is properly cooked can only come from tasting it and checking the texture. If a judge is already judging whether the brisket is over/under cooked at the appearance stage of judging the cook is already screwed.

If the cook wishes to present pulled or chopped brisket then perhaps that's because it is a better product when served that way. Won't know until you taste it.

(getting off my soapbox).

ATTENTION TMCMASTER AND ANYONE ELSE THAT JUDGE. Please read this post and memorize it completely, it should be every ones guide and montra for the proper mind set of a CBJ. And one more thing, if the entry has a lot of sauce don't just assume the cook was trying to hide something that statement is got to be one of the most aggravating and common statements made and should be grounds for a CBJs immediate dismissal but thats just me.
Dave

[Bbq Bubba]

Wondering why you left class without asking these questions?

[tmcmaster]

Originally Posted by Bbq Bubba

Wondering why you left class without asking these questions?

I did ask. Was presented with a "That's subjective" or "KCBS doesn't have an offical criteria for that..." Also, as we were told at the beginning of the class, it was the largest CBJ class ever (thanks to BBQ Pitmasters on TLC), so the Q and A period was very brief.

But, thanks for all the responces and help! I promise to be the best, most impartial and honest judge I can.