Judge what is presented.....or not - Page 3

boogiesnap · 10-22-2012, 09:13 PM

maybe the rules should reflect reality instead of trying to bend it.

Bunny · 10-22-2012, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muzzlebrake

I received a comment card last year stating my brisket needed a better smoke ring. To my knowledge the CD clearly states the smoke ring is the one thing judges are told to not use as a criteria. I was always under the impression that something like that was supposed to be corrected by the TC.

These judges at CBJ class are taught not to take the smoke ring into consideration because it can be falsified. But remember there are those who judge who are not CBJ's. But it is stated on the CD.

jmoney7269 · 10-23-2012, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmprantz

I'm just throwing out an idea, but I wonder if this kind of illegal judging would be cut down if reps were held accountable for these kinds of scores. I don't know who the rep was nor am I trying to point fingers at any single persion, but if the Rep Committee or BOD took action against reps for not driving the rules home to judges, they might try just a little bit harder to ensure that the judges understand and will abide by the rules....

dmp

We just did a comp a few weeks ago that people were instructed to eat the bite sized peice or cut a piece for themselves, but do not touch the meat. A few people disregarded the rules, tried to twist the chicken leg to see if it would pull out, if it didn't, they gave it 1's and spoke of it not being done at the judging table, then it was the domino effect of Others not wanting to try what was presented to them. Teams that do really well in chicken were placing 17th -DAL. When I checked my scorecard that night Becaise we all thought something was fishy, then the truth came out. I got two 9's and three 1's Becaise the judge didn't want to try it. Even though the table captain said this did not happen, the proof is in the pudding. Myself and 6 teams spoke to the administrator of the fair and said we wOuld not return if the judging criteria was not improved on. To me it sounded like a bunch of old timers and drunks getting free meals or what we call "eaters" the sad thing is that the promoter Denys this still to this day when people who were actual judges who have come forward and given their name. It's just that people dont have any personal accountability anymore. It's sad that you have to hold a grown ups hand and walk them through the right process these days

Muzzlebrake · 10-23-2012, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunny

These judges at CBJ class are taught not to take the smoke ring into consideration because it can be falsified. But remember there are those who judge who are not CBJ's. But it is stated on the CD.

I'll take a look to see if I still have the card but I thought it was from a CBJ.

My question about the whole thing is where are the checks and balances for judges? With so much of judging open to subjectivity here are 2 examples of something that is objective but also specifically forbidden and emphasized prior to each contest.

What happens after a judge submits a score based on the wrong criteria? As a cook if we submit something that is not within the rules we run the risk of being DQ'ed. What recourse does a cook have when they are being judged outside of the rules?

To be honest I have not judged that much and may be wrong but I was under the impression that part of the TC duties were to ensure the judges followed the proper criteria.
I would think that the TC would review the comment cards just as he reviews the score cards. In the case of something like these 2 instances, is it far fetched to think that the TC approach the judge and point out the error and have the entry scored according to the proper criteria?

bbq.tom · 10-23-2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muzzlebrake

I'll take a look to see if I still have the card but I thought it was from a CBJ.

My question about the whole thing is where are the checks and balances for judges? With so much of judging open to subjectivity here are 2 examples of something that is objective but also specifically forbidden and emphasized prior to each contest.

What happens after a judge submits a score based on the wrong criteria? As a cook if we submit something that is not within the rules we run the risk of being DQ'ed. What recourse does a cook have when they are being judged outside of the rules?

To be honest I have not judged that much and may be wrong but I was under the impression that part of the TC duties were to ensure the judges followed the proper criteria.
I would think that the TC would review the comment cards just as he reviews the score cards. In the case of something like these 2 instances, is it far fetched to think that the TC approach the judge and point out the error and have the entry scored according to the proper criteria?

This is yet another reason for KCBS to keep track of CBJs and how they are judging, which is exactly what they are working on with their new software.

Judges that consistently score in the 5-7 range while others at their table are in the 8-9 range for the same category will be able to be identified and "counseled" or whatever KCBS is planning on remedial training.

bigabyte · 10-23-2012, 01:44 PM

Once a score is written down, it can not be changed. However, the judge can be spoken to, and depending on what the organizer chooses to do, if they get wind of it, they don't have to allow that judge to judge at any more of their contests.

That's the extent of consequences for judges though in terms of an improperly scored entry (too high or too low). Basically none.

Having the lowest score thrown out takes care of this problem in most cases, at least where it dings the cooks.

Jacked UP BBQ · 10-23-2012, 02:17 PM

I would take that as a hint. Put slices in the box. Taking risks is good and all, but in kcbs are rarely rewarded.

Bunny · 10-23-2012, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muzzlebrake

I'll take a look to see if I still have the card but I thought it was from a CBJ.

My question about the whole thing is where are the checks and balances for judges? With so much of judging open to subjectivity here are 2 examples of something that is objective but also specifically forbidden and emphasized prior to each contest.

What happens after a judge submits a score based on the wrong criteria? As a cook if we submit something that is not within the rules we run the risk of being DQ'ed. What recourse does a cook have when they are being judged outside of the rules?

To be honest I have not judged that much and may be wrong but I was under the impression that part of the TC duties were to ensure the judges followed the proper criteria.
I would think that the TC would review the comment cards just as he reviews the score cards. In the case of something like these 2 instances, is it far fetched to think that the TC approach the judge and point out the error and have the entry scored according to the proper criteria?

Most of the reps we know take the comment cards seriously. We do anyway. If something is out of line, we talk to the judge. But remember, we try hard not to let it happen but judges do slip by us from time to time. We also have a CD the Table Captains must listen to because their job is so important.

arrowhead · 10-23-2012, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muzzlebrake

I'll take a look to see if I still have the card but I thought it was from a CBJ.

My question about the whole thing is where are the checks and balances for judges? With so much of judging open to subjectivity here are 2 examples of something that is objective but also specifically forbidden and emphasized prior to each contest.

What happens after a judge submits a score based on the wrong criteria? As a cook if we submit something that is not within the rules we run the risk of being DQ'ed. What recourse does a cook have when they are being judged outside of the rules?

To be honest I have not judged that much and may be wrong but I was under the impression that part of the TC duties were to ensure the judges followed the proper criteria.
I would think that the TC would review the comment cards just as he reviews the score cards. In the case of something like these 2 instances, is it far fetched to think that the TC approach the judge and point out the error and have the entry scored according to the proper criteria?

table captains are instructed not to approach the judges about the scores. they are instructed to review the scorecards and bring any discrepancy to the attention of the rep and the rep is supposed to handle it. the rep is the only person who can authorize a change of score.

landarc · 10-23-2012, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacked UP BBQ

I would take that as a hint. Put slices in the box. Taking risks is good and all, but in kcbs are rarely rewarded.

I don't entirely agree here, and it is beacuse I have been that guy who just did not get my flat done right, but, for some reason, the point was incredible. I wanted to turn in the point as slices, but, my team captain made the call to chunk it, before the flat was checked. We turned in slices and chunks, and the one comment we got was that if the chunks alone, we scored higher, the flat took away from it.

And yes, i could have cooked it better.

Muzzlebrake · 10-23-2012, 09:03 PM

Bunny, I hear you and by no means do I wish for this to turn into yet another judge bashing thread. I think things like this are more of an anomaly than the norm and the entire judging system gets it right more often than not. I was just wondering what are the consequences of a judge that breaks the rules of judging? As a cook if we break the rules, we run the risk of a DQ, which negatively effects only our team directly. If a judge violates the rules the consequences can have an effect on everyone it seems except that judge.

No offense to Tom or Chris but I'm not talking about trying to correct something as subjective as a judge that gives low scores. I'm talking about what happens when a judge violates a clearly defined objective rule such as we have in these 2 examples. What would happen say if a judge just opened up a beer at the table or lit a cigarette? How is that different from a judge using not only their own criteria but standards that are specifically highlighted prior to judging each and every time?
Reps are accountable to KCBS, organizers to reps, all of whom with help from table captains and judges, monitor cooks to ensure rules are followed. There seems to be a system of accountability in place to ensure that the rules are followed for everyone except judges and table captains. Shouldn't they be held to them same standard of accountability as everyone else involved?

ModelMaker · 10-24-2012, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbq.tom

This is yet another reason for KCBS to keep track of CBJs and how they are judging, which is exactly what they are working on with their new software.

Judges that consistently score in the 5-7 range while others at their table are in the 8-9 range for the same category will be able to be identified and "counseled" or whatever KCBS is planning on remedial training.

Yes by all means lets "council" those judges that use the whole number range available and get everybody into that "8-9 range".
That will make competition BBQ more fun.
Ed

Dr_KY · 10-24-2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Mike

And this is what sucks about bbq competitions. Any time you try to be a bit different, you get hammered because you must have screwed something up. When in reality, you just wanted to do something different. Just judge what your given and don't worry about why you were given that.

Been is the same situation. Actually watched a video of a judge pointing out that 'something must be wrong' because of the amount of sauce (pork) and size of the slices (brisket) and that is what he looks for when judging.

Pickin' Porkers · 10-24-2012, 09:18 AM

If more judges consistently get into the 8-9 range then the number of ties are going to increase to exponential levels. It is IMPERATIVE that KCBS allow 1/2 point scoring to help alleviate all the potential ties. No sure about everyone else but I am not in favor of my placement being decided ultimately by a computer generated coin toss. Way too much money and effort goes into each category to see our placement decided by this method. Even though ties may be broken using the other criteria....judges need to be able to to score a sample correctly when "sitting on the fence" about what they have eaten rather than give the benefit of the doubt with the higher score.

Slamdunkpro · 10-24-2012, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pickin' Porkers

If more judges consistently get into the 8-9 range then the number of ties are going to increase to exponential levels. It is IMPERATIVE that KCBS allow 1/2 point scoring to help alleviate all the potential ties.......

How about just teach the judges to use the whole scoring range of 2-9 ?

10-22-2012, 09:13 PM	#31
boogiesnap Babbling Farker Join Date: 04-22-10 Location: NEW ENGLAND	maybe the rules should reflect reality instead of trying to bend it. __________________ [SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Blue"][I][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][/FONT]"YAWN"[/I][/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]-[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="2"]In memory of a friend.[/SIZE][/COLOR] avatar by grillman. patent pending. :mad2::becky:

10-23-2012, 01:44 PM	#36
bigabyte somebody shut me the fark up. Join Date: 05-10-06 Location: Overland Fark, KS	Once a score is written down, it can not be changed. However, the judge can be spoken to, and depending on what the organizer chooses to do, if they get wind of it, they don't have to allow that judge to judge at any more of their contests. That's the extent of consequences for judges though in terms of an improperly scored entry (too high or too low). Basically none. Having the lowest score thrown out takes care of this problem in most cases, at least where it dings the cooks. __________________ Asshattatron Farkanaut, CGCFO Chief Galactic Crockpot Foil Officer *Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Are you MOINK Certified?* *Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards!* Don't forget about the Throwdown Thingies! The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club Duh.

10-23-2012, 02:17 PM	#37
Jacked UP BBQ Babbling Farker Join Date: 06-09-08 Location: Forker River, NJ	I would take that as a hint. Put slices in the box. Taking risks is good and all, but in kcbs are rarely rewarded. __________________ Jacked UP BBQ vending Ocean County Pig Assassins competition team retired and is now known as Jacked UP BBQ Fec 750 Fec 100 Large Spicewine

10-23-2012, 09:03 PM	#41
Muzzlebrake Babbling Farker Join Date: 09-22-06 Location: Pleasant Valley NY	Bunny, I hear you and by no means do I wish for this to turn into yet another judge bashing thread. I think things like this are more of an anomaly than the norm and the entire judging system gets it right more often than not. I was just wondering what are the consequences of a judge that breaks the rules of judging? As a cook if we break the rules, we run the risk of a DQ, which negatively effects only our team directly. If a judge violates the rules the consequences can have an effect on everyone it seems except that judge. No offense to Tom or Chris but I'm not talking about trying to correct something as subjective as a judge that gives low scores. I'm talking about what happens when a judge violates a clearly defined objective rule such as we have in these 2 examples. What would happen say if a judge just opened up a beer at the table or lit a cigarette? How is that different from a judge using not only their own criteria but standards that are specifically highlighted prior to judging each and every time? Reps are accountable to KCBS, organizers to reps, all of whom with help from table captains and judges, monitor cooks to ensure rules are followed. There seems to be a system of accountability in place to ensure that the rules are followed for everyone except judges and table captains. Shouldn't they be held to them same standard of accountability as everyone else involved? __________________ Sean Keever "What sort of people are these charcoal masters? They behaved badly and were unconcerned with appearances. Their hair was long and unkempt and their clothes were wrinkled and old. They drank beer to and from the crab house and they made rude noises while we cooked." Tao of Charcoal

10-24-2012, 09:18 AM	#44
Pickin' Porkers Full Fledged Farker Join Date: 08-15-07 Location: Clemmons, NC	If more judges consistently get into the 8-9 range then the number of ties are going to increase to exponential levels. It is IMPERATIVE that KCBS allow 1/2 point scoring to help alleviate all the potential ties. No sure about everyone else but I am not in favor of my placement being decided ultimately by a computer generated coin toss. Way too much money and effort goes into each category to see our placement decided by this method. Even though ties may be broken using the other criteria....judges need to be able to to score a sample correctly when "sitting on the fence" about what they have eaten rather than give the benefit of the doubt with the higher score.