bbqscores.com and bbqdata.com data

Screen scrape, but I wouldn’t waste my time on that right now. KCBS is working on a new system that will put all results behind a paywall thereby changing the structure of what you need to do. In all likelihood, you’ll have to work out a deal with KCBS to get data. Hopefully an API of some sort is included in the new system, but I doubt it’s free.

It's their data/IP. You can scrape it for now. I expect them to monetize it, as they should as a business (fully understanding the 501 status). I can see cases for exceptions, which benefit BBQ in general as well as KCBS.

If you are looking to generate revenue, I wish you luck. If you are looking to promote BBQ and/or KCBS I hope there are exceptions made. More importantly I hope the data is treated as the resource that it is.

Jorge said:

It's their data/IP.

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IANAL but as I understand it scores aren't IP (remember you can't copyright a game) and even if they were considered such they would fall under the news exception so once they were published under any form distribution as news would apply. Plus if KCBS chooses to require payment for results the teams that have trademarked their names will be knocking on the door since you can't fee publish a trademarked/copyrighted item without due compensation.

This is a huge can of worms and not the best use of our membership money. It will only serve to further alienate the membership.

Slamdunkpro said:

IANAL but as I understand it scores aren't IP (remember you can't copyright a game) and even if they were considered such they would fall under the news exception so once they were published under any form distribution as news would apply. Plus if KCBS chooses to require payment for results the teams that have trademarked their names will be knocking on the door since you can't fee publish a trademarked/copyrighted item without due compensation.

This is a huge can of worms and not the best use of our membership money. It will only serve to further alienate the membership.

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It is a can of worms. There is also some case law regarding some elements pertinent to the scenario supporting KCBS. It's not hard to fix. How it get fixed and who is satisfied is another matter.

After reading my posts again this morning, I was tired yesterday.

This being a can of worms is an understatement. I believe that KCBS needs to protect their IP, and we can debate what that is all day long....or someone else can. I believe that there needs to be a liberal license policy. If it benefits BBQ the license is granted, period, end of discussion. To not do so raises potential conflicts with 501 status. Unless I've missed a change KCBS still has 501c4, and not 501c3, status. To me the line is pretty simple. Is someone looking to generate revenue? If they are, but their intended use is acceptable license the data for a fee. Are they looking to promote BBQ, and at most generate revenue to cover costs? Grant the license for a limited time at no cost, and renew or rescind the license as needed.

For those that disagree I'll have my back to the creek, and some Shiner on ice 11 hours east of DFW this time next week. Stop by.

Jorge said:

After reading my posts again this morning, I was tired yesterday.

This being a can of worms is an understatement. I believe that KCBS needs to protect their IP, and we can debate what that is all day long....or someone else can. I believe that there needs to be a liberal license policy. If it benefits BBQ the license is granted, period, end of discussion. To not do so raises potential conflicts with 501 status. Unless I've missed a change KCBS still has 501c4, and not 501c3, status. To me the line is pretty simple. Is someone looking to generate revenue? If they are, but their intended use is acceptable license the data for a fee. Are they looking to promote BBQ, and at most generate revenue to cover costs? Grant the license for a limited time at no cost, and renew or rescind the license as needed.

For those that disagree I'll have my back to the creek, and some Shiner on ice 11 hours east of DFW this time next week. Stop by.

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I think this is a fair assessment and it is one route KCBS certainly has the right to go. The revenue from BBQ Scoring data is minuscule at best (most likely its non-existent). However, I feel monetizing scoring data is extremely short sighted. Their stated mission statement is to “promote Barbecue”. Putting scoring data behind a paywall certainly protects their IP, but it will also certainly not promote BBQ. I imagine it will do the opposite.

We have a 300 pound gorilla in the room. Our hobby is dying on the vine. Contests are dying, organizers don’t make any money, teams can’t afford to compete, and honestly, nobody really cares when they do compete because there is zero public interaction.

Stifling innovation because the innovators might make a buck seems like the wrong tack at this point to me. KCBS will generate much more revenue by having healthy contests and a large pool of teams than they will by trying to police that extra 50 cents BBQData might make after expenses.

Open the API. Encourage innovation. If someone makes a boatload of money off KCBS scoring data, that’s a good thing for KCBS, not bad. That means enough people actually care about competition BBQ to generate revenue somehow which ensures KCBS growth.

Just my 2 cents.

I had this conversation with Sterling Ball of Big Poppa Smokers just the other day and these protectionist policies are very similar to how Microsoft operated 15-20 years ago. They lost a ton of market share because of them. Google (or Bing, I guess!) “Sterling Ball Microsoft” for a good dive down open source versus protectionist policies.

How much could BBQ Data possibly be making. It's a great site with a clean interface. Why wouldn't KCBS pay BBQ data to write their program on it's own website...

luckysob said:

Thanks everyone for the information... would of sucked to do some work to have to redo it later. As for my intent with the data, I am just a tech geek looking to automate my personal data gathering and possibly do some big data analytics on a larger subset of data for learning purposes.

I did reach out to KCBS directly and was told there is no current public API and they were considering it in the future. No mention of cost, or sounds of monetizing that revenue stream. Hopefully they are just figuring out the logistic of how to open it up while keep the site secure and not adding additional load.

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Any chance of crunching the numbers, and letting me know why I can't cook ribs to save my life??? :sad:

DUBBAGA said:

Any chance of crunching the numbers, and letting me know why I can't cook ribs to save my life??? :sad:

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Try steaming them first.:evil:

DUBBAGA said:

Any chance of crunching the numbers, and letting me know why I can't cook ribs to save my life??? :sad:

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Did I miss something... Thought you took 1st place with those ribs just recently...

Hi Hi

Bob in Corona said:

Did I miss something... Thought you took 1st place with those ribs just recently...


Hi Hi

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Sadly, I did not do an adequate job of replicating those ribs last weekend in Temecula :tsk:

I would think that it would be in the best interest of KCBS to keep the results, points etc as public as possible and allow sites like bbqdata access to an API to further dive into stats etc. That's free promotion for KCBS to have a site doing that.

There have been KCBS discussions about keeping score data secret and available to paying members only. I think it's a wrong headed approach, and in addition to the trademark issues Micheal raised, it could open up KCBS to be challenged on their non-profit status. Treating scores as proprietary information wouldn't seem to align with their mission. It may be a moot point, because if KCBS decides that sites like BBQdata can't exist, I think their will be a flight of people from the organization.

luckysob said:

... I did reach out to KCBS directly and was told there is no current public API and they were considering it in the future. ...

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They told me the same thing a few years ago. I don't know how the other guys get that data, and I'm not interested in scraping it.