KCBS Next Steps/Goals/Focus ?!?!?!?

That said, the cream does tend to rise to the top. Everyone has off days, even judges.
 
ffemtreed said:
As a newish team with 13 comps under our belts over the past 4 years I would say our biggest frustration is the lack of feed back from the judging process. We almost completely quit after about 4 or 6 comps because we couldn't figure out what the judges wanted and the very little amount of comment cards we got were mostly useless and in a lot of cases contradicting themselves.



I have talked to a couple of teams who no longer compete just for this reason. They do a few comps and work hard at improving, but still never see the scores improve and they just give-up. They just don't know how to improve and unless you are cooking a lot contests you can't really experiment to find that winning combo of flavors that consistently score well.


The reason why my team still competes is we are strong A type personalities and don't quit just because we lose. We have said multiple times on the long rides home that once we do well at one of these comps we will quit. I hoping when that time comes it will fuel our fire to do even better.



Again this goes back to our strong type A, I want to compete against the best, I don't want to win some in some lower division just to get a pat on the back.
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Lack of feedback I think gets everyone at some point. We were there too. We ended up taking a couple classes, and have improved with each one we took. It definitely allowed us to see what the target was for tenderness, flavors, etc.

I would recommend a class on the type of cooker you use for a first one. While we learn a lot from all of them, and take things from everyone, our 2nd class was Brad and Tim's. Cooking on Gateways, it gave us some insight in how to use our drums better, and how to turn out the food we wanted. Trimming, flavors, presentation, etc have been influenced by all of the ones we've taken, though.
 
ffemtreed said:
As a newish team with 13 comps under our belts over the past 4 years I would say our biggest frustration is the lack of feed back from the judging process. We almost completely quit after about 4 or 6 comps because we couldn't figure out what the judges wanted and the very little amount of comment cards we got were mostly useless and in a lot of cases contradicting themselves.



I have talked to a couple of teams who no longer compete just for this reason. They do a few comps and work hard at improving, but still never see the scores improve and they just give-up. They just don't know how to improve and unless you are cooking a lot contests you can't really experiment to find that winning combo of flavors that consistently score well.


The reason why my team still competes is we are strong A type personalities and don't quit just because we lose. We have said multiple times on the long rides home that once we do well at one of these comps we will quit. I hoping when that time comes it will fuel our fire to do even better.



Again this goes back to our strong type A, I want to compete against the best, I don't want to win some in some lower division just to get a pat on the back.
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Great point about the feedback. The most frustrating part about this is it could be fixed overnight with a tweak to the scoring system that made your scores diagnostic in nature while having no impact on overall scores, averages, or anything else.

Good luck keeping after it!
 
TBoneMac said:
I can tell you from a wannabe competitor's point of view exactly what is discouraging new team formation. These things greatly discourage me:



1. The un-level playing field when it comes to meat. Hell, I can't afford Wagyu briskets or Snake River Farms pork butts/ribs. The "Guinea Pig" contests seemed like a great idea, where all teams were on the same level playing field in terms of meat quality. But those contests seem to have gone by the way side, probably because top teams cried about not being able to use higher quality meat than most other teams could afford.



2. Stupid garnish. KCBS says it's "all about the meat", but it's really not. It's a lot about the garnish. Allowing people to pretty-up their boxes with garnish adds an unnecessary burden on cooks.




3. The way KCBS contests have gravitated toward producing BBQ that almost no one would want to cook/eat at home. I'm a (former) KCBS judge who simply got tired of eating over-salted, over-spiced, overly sweet, MSG-filled meat that would overpower most people's palate before they got done eating a meal. The "get the judges' attention with one bite" philosophy is a canker sore on the face of KCBS.


I'd really love to compete, but the above three things give me great hesitation.
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1. Our team cooks with the South Carolina Barbecue Assoc. (SCBA) which uses the "guinea pig" method. I have to agree with Brad and Jorge, 9 comps. out of 10 its one of the dozen or so "regulars" that hear their names called at awards time. Further, I'll say 6 of 10 comps. its one of 6-8 of those dozen.



2. SCBA also doesn't allow garnish but don't think we just put our turn in cuts in the bottom of a bare white 9" box. We "garnish" our boxes and it's edible just not green.



3.Sorry, this is the nature of competition anything whether its food, show cars, or whatever. It's generally the folks who are willing to go a little further and push the limits that succeed. I know I'm constantly working to figure out anything that I feel may give me an edge. Although I know as new as I am to comp BBQ most have figured out, forgotten, and remembered waaay more than I can hope to know.
 
gettinbasted said:
It makes perfect sense if the bunch of whiners you’re talking about are better cooks than you are. (I don’t want to ruin the ending, but they’re much better cooks than you are)
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In adding absurd amounts of rub, salt, and MSG - yes, you're right. They (you) are much better cooks than I am. Hands down. You've perfected the "art" of creating one-bite impressions that in totality make a sickening meal. Congratulations.

In terms of juciness and tenderness, and something everyday people would want to eat and keep eating, you've probably become too indoctrinated to "one-bite impressions" to even be in the same ball park as the average backyard cook.

Again, congratulations.
 
TBoneMac said:
In adding absurd amounts of rub, salt, and MSG - yes, you're right. They (you) are much better cooks than I am. Hands down. You've perfected the "art" of creating one-bite impressions that in totality make a sickening meal. Congratulations.

In terms of juciness and tenderness, and something everyday people would want to eat and keep eating, you've probably become too indoctrinated to "one-bite impressions" to even be in the same ball park as the average backyard cook.

Again, congratulations.
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There is a competition for juiciness, tenderness and something everyday people want to eat and keep eating and it is called the restaurant business....and guess what, Brad does well at that too.

Your post makes it sound like the food that gets served at a competition is inedible, it is not. I feed it to friends and family that come to events all the time and they love it. I have had the opportunity to sample a lot of the food that top teams have made and it is good too. Could it be seasoned less and still be good yes, but it is still enjoyable to eat.

In your original post you said that the meat was too expensive, this is really just the brisket because many (most?) of the top teams use pork and chicken from Walmart. A SRF brisket is going to cost an extra $100 for a contest that costs between $600-$800 depending on the location (gas + hotel if I need to stay overnight). Is that a real money, yes, but is it the difference between competing and not competing?

In the same post you said you don't like garnish. I can't imagine KCBS would get rid of garnish then put a limit on the amount of meat you can put in the box. That will cause teams to use meat as a garnish just like FBA events. That extra meat (and smoker space) is going to increase costs way more than the extra $100 for a Wagyu brisket.
 
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egorham said:
There is a competition for juiciness, tenderness and something everyday people want to eat and keep eating and it is called the restaurant business....and guess what, Brad does well at that too.

Your post makes it sound like the food that gets served at a competition is inedible, it is not. I feed it to friends and family that come to events all the time and they love it. I have had the opportunity to sample a lot of the food that top teams have made and it is good too. Could it be seasoned less and still be good yes, but it is still enjoyable to eat.

In your original post you said that the meat was too expensive, this is really just the brisket because many (most?) of the top teams use pork and chicken from Walmart. A SRF brisket is going to cost an extra $100 for a contest that costs between $600-$800 depending on the location (gas + hotel if I need to stay overnight). Is that a real money, yes, but is it the difference between competing and not competing?

In the same post you said you don't like garnish. I can't imagine KCBS would get rid of garnish then put a limit on the amount of meat can be in the box. That will cause teams to use meat as a garnish just like FBA events. That extra meat (and smoker space) is going to increase costs way more than the extra $100 for a Wagyu brisket.
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Just further proof that KCBS is a broken model. There's no defending that.

Look, I mean no disrespect to you or any competition cook here. Hell, I'd LOVE to be a good competition cook. Yall are good at competition, and I'm not. Enough said. Yall are better than me. I can admit that and be OK with it. Satisfied?

I've wanted to get into competition BBQ for a long time. I became a KCBS Certified BBQ Judge, excited to learn the ropes in anticipation of becoming a competition cook. Just for fun, with winning as an "icing on the cake" proposition.

Then I learned that the objective of the majority of KCBS cooks was to create a "one bite" explosion of flavor that overwhelmed the judges' taste buds to the point of making a big impression, yet unwelcome by most "dinner eaters" standards for a full meal. And I experienced it myself, as a KCBS BBQ judge.

I got so sick of over-salted, over-spiced, MSG-filled meat that I quit judging altogether. I much preferred my backyard BBQ to the "professional quality" meat I had been eating at KCBS competitions.

I'm sorry if I'm offending any of the "professionals" here. The term "professional" tends to be as over-used as the term "engineer" these days. And everyone wants to be called an "engineer".
 
TBoneMac said:
I got so sick of over-salted, over-spiced, MSG-filled meat that I quit judging altogether. I much preferred my backyard BBQ to the "professional quality" meat I had been eating at KCBS competitions.
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Were the winning teams doing this? I find it hard to believe that the winning teams were turning in over-salted, over-spice MSG filled meat. Whenever I have done well it has been more balanced than over-powering like you describe.


The phrases "one bite BBQ" and "KCBS is all about garnish" came from a TV show. It makes for good TV but it is not really how things work when you get to a contest. Do we use garnish, yes, is that the most important part of an entry, no...tenderness is. Good balanced flavor with perfect tenderness in a simple, neat garnished box will beat over-salted, over-spiced meat at most contests.
 
egorham said:
extra meat (and smoker space) is going to increase costs way more than the extra $100 for a Wagyu brisket.
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I was gonna type the exact same thing. People would start cooking an extra SRF Gold just to chop for the box!
 
TBoneMac said:
Just further proof that KCBS is a broken model. There's no defending that.

Look, I mean no disrespect to you or any competition cook here. Hell, I'd LOVE to be a good competition cook. Yall are good at competition, and I'm not. Enough said. Yall are better than me. I can admit that and be OK with it. Satisfied?

I've wanted to get into competition BBQ for a long time. I became a KCBS Certified BBQ Judge, excited to learn the ropes in anticipation of becoming a competition cook. Just for fun, with winning as an "icing on the cake" proposition.

Then I learned that the objective of the majority of KCBS cooks was to create a "one bite" explosion of flavor that overwhelmed the judges' taste buds to the point of making a big impression, yet unwelcome by most "dinner eaters" standards for a full meal. And I experienced it myself, as a KCBS BBQ judge.

I got so sick of over-salted, over-spiced, MSG-filled meat that I quit judging altogether. I much preferred my backyard BBQ to the "professional quality" meat I had been eating at KCBS competitions.

I'm sorry if I'm offending any of the "professionals" here. The term "professional" tends to be as over-used as the term "engineer" these days. And everyone wants to be called an "engineer".
Click to expand...

So you became a CBJ to be “dinner eater”? Then you want to demean everything about Comp BBQ. Thank for not judging anymore nor becoming a “professional” to show us how it should be done.
 
TBoneMac said:
Then I learned that the objective of the majority of KCBS cooks was to create a "one bite" explosion of flavor that overwhelmed the judges' taste buds to the point of making a big impression, yet unwelcome by most "dinner eaters" standards for a full meal. And I experienced it myself, as a KCBS BBQ judge.

I'm sorry if I'm offending any of the "professionals" here. The term "professional" tends to be as over-used as the term "engineer" these days. And everyone wants to be called an "engineer".
Click to expand...

The objective of every KCBS cook is winning a bbq contest. Cooks gravitate to what scores. If a completely unseasoned, unsauced, over smoked piece of meat like you make at home was judged the best by a group of 50 strangers, that is what would win so that is what would go in the box. Your supposition that the KCBS system is broken because you don’t like the food that most humans judging bbq contests deem the best is a little ridiculous. Stop judging and go on about your life.

Or maybe you’re a “professional” troll? If so I give you all 9s!
 
TBoneMac said:
In adding absurd amounts of rub, salt, and MSG - yes, you're right. They (you) are much better cooks than I am. Hands down. You've perfected the "art" of creating one-bite impressions that in totality make a sickening meal. Congratulations.

In terms of juciness and tenderness, and something everyday people would want to eat and keep eating, you've probably become too indoctrinated to "one-bite impressions" to even be in the same ball park as the average backyard cook.

Again, congratulations.
Click to expand...

Thanks buddy!

I hope to continue to use my imaginary cooking prowess to turn real world profits. Maybe one day I’ll be a “professional”!
 
Michigan BBQ Fan said:
Probably. One way to know is to try it out and let the system react to it. What about this idea....organizers could connect with a local meat provider and give contestants access to meat when they arrive at such a deep discount that it only makes "sense" to buy it there? Sure, others will still pay hundreds of dollars for Wagyu etc...but..others can compete at a discount rate.

Or, another CRAZY idea...what if got bonus points for using a lesser grade of beef? I know...probably impossible to implement. Just brainstorming.
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Here's an idea. Let teams cook what they want. Part of being a good cook is the skill of picking what to cook.
 
egorham said:
I am using this quote as an example, not to single it out. Why does every idea have to be a mandate or apply to all events? Can't we loosen up the rules just a bit for the masters series to give promoters discretion to try new things? As long as some basic parameters are followed, for me it is traditional 4 meats with KCBS judging process, then why not let the promoters decide on some of the other details?

You want to pay 10 deep at your event, do it. You want a winner take all $50K event to attract the big name teams, might as well give it a try. You want to require teams buy their meat at the local Costco because they are sponsoring the event...that works for me too. I would not want any of these mandated at all events but it also does not bother me if a promoter wants to try them at any event. If I don't like a particular requirement for an event then I won't go but I don't want the rules to be so strict that others don't have the choice. We are loosing contests so we need to try new things to see what works.
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The rules are already loosened up. Organizers can already have meat provided contests. Look how popular they've gotten. So popular most of them didn't last but 2 years.
 
Mike in Roseville said:
@Michigan BBQ Fan...love some of those ideas!


Alright...

The "sport of competitive BBQ." We're going to call this KCBS competition a "sport." Ok...if we are operating under the premise that it is similar to other sports, then the very nature of it's current structure is hampering interest. Cost is a big part of it. A recent study found the largest decline in youth sports? Costs (especially with traveling leagues). While participant/event costs for the KCBS loom large, one or more elements should be leveled out among the competitors to spur involvement.

The current rules and judging simply isn't enough. As an old friend of mine once said: "You keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you got."

Follow me here. Other sports put measures in place to level the playing field and eliminate a "competitive advantage." Player drafts and draft order is one example. A salary cap is another one. Rules for gear being used (Antonio Brown and his helmet, no corked bats, no steroids, etc.). I'll even point out many folks beloved sport of NASCAR. NASCAR is a sport that absolutely tries to remove every element of the "competitive edge" from a race (especially from the car itself). A sport where it want's driver vs. driver or team vs. team. Can a crew make a car go faster? You bet it can. Bill Elliot and his car from the 1980's would dominate every single race today (any people would complain about him driving 20mph faster than everyone else). Today only a certain number variables can be modified on a car for a given race. It's not who has the best car. NASCAR has been molded into "who is the best driver and the best team."

So back to KCBS. What can be done?

Sponsor provided meat is one idea mentioned. A lottery for selection is another (like the SCA does). You pick two racks in the first round, two in the second.

I really like the idea of a standard box. Maybe it's compartmentalized? Maybe no garnish is allowed?

Thinking back to IROC...what if everyone had to cook on a Weber kettle or a WSM that was provided by the event? The little kids comps do that with Smokey Joes. Why not the big guys? People with 100k trailers would bitch. They might not want to do it. Fine. But I'd be willing to bet that it would draw a few more people in because they could cook on the same grill they have in their backyard or had at home growing up.
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What a great way to kill teams from getting meat and equipment sponsors........


Sounds like BBQ socialism.
 
TBoneMac said:
In adding absurd amounts of rub, salt, and MSG - yes, you're right. They (you) are much better cooks than I am. Hands down. You've perfected the "art" of creating one-bite impressions that in totality make a sickening meal. Congratulations.

In terms of juciness and tenderness, and something everyday people would want to eat and keep eating, you've probably become too indoctrinated to "one-bite impressions" to even be in the same ball park as the average backyard cook.

Again, congratulations.
Click to expand...
you say rub, salt and msg like it's a bad thing
 
TBoneMac said:
Then I learned that the objective of the majority of KCBS cooks was to create a "one bite" explosion of flavor that overwhelmed the judges' taste buds to the point of making a big impression, yet unwelcome by most "dinner eaters" standards for a full meal. And I experienced it myself, as a KCBS BBQ judge.

I got so sick of over-salted, over-spiced, MSG-filled meat that I quit judging altogether. I much preferred my backyard BBQ to the "professional quality" meat I had been eating at KCBS competitions.
Click to expand...
My objective is to win. That's it.
 
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