Medium Brisket, or stalling with wet bulb

[matadorbait]

Hi everyone,

I think I've re-invented the wheel, here, and I want to solicit a discussion to see if this is so.

I was amazed to see that the sous vide crowd are cooking brisket at very low temperatures (57C to 80C). This reminded me of a Texan (texasgrassfedbeef.com, Ted Slanker) who advised me to cook all BBQ at 80C to 80C internal, then probe until done while holding at 80C. Keller at the French Laundry is said to cook at 64C for 48 hours.

Given that the sous vide crowd are holding brisket at, say 64C (147F) for 48 hours, why can't we do the same thing in a smoker. In other words, despite the advent of hot-and-fast smoker cooking, maybe very low and slow is analogous to sous vide and opens up the idea of a 'medium brisket' which never gets above 64C/147F.

Measurements on stalling (see Blonder, GenuineIdeas.com) add more to the picture. If a smoker is held at, eg, 90C, then the stall temp may correspond to 60C or 70C, our target. So, as long as the surface of the meat is moist (because of mopping, injecting, or water from the meat itself), it will be effectively the same as sous vide. Lowering the temperature and raising the humidity will keep the wet bulb temperature the same, all the way to smoker at 64C and 100%RH.

So, why not fire up the smoker, cook for a few hours at 150C/300F until the surface of the meat is at 64C/147F, then lower the fire and try to hold the surface of the meat (using IR thermometer) at 64C for 48 hours, using either mop or water pan to keep the surface wet.Given Blonder's measurements of stall, that means running my stick burner at 190F / 90C or thereabouts, keeping the surface of the meat stalled and mopped. Got that: we stay in the stall, with mopping and water pan, for the full cook (or at least 90% of it). Two days later, we have a medium, smoker brisket ready for slicing.

Anyone ever heard of cooking in the stall to get a medium brisket? Since its done all the time with sous vide, we should be able to do much better in a smoker, right? This is cooking to probe tenderness at its most extreme.

If I'm full of crap, please let me know before I waste perfectly good weekend, 48 hours of wood, and a brisket....

thanks,
raj

ps: I'm NOT talking about a brisket in plastic--I'm only referring to sous vide in terms of temperature and time. Also, the above would apply to chuck/ribs/butt or anything we take to 190F usually.

[peeps]

I get impatient with a 10 hour cook...I don't know how you SV guys do it with these ultra-long cooks.

I'd be interested in results, though.

[Bludawg]

Ok I'll man up You're full of Bull Feces!Here is where your theory fall on its face: SUEV is a wet environment there is no where for the moisture to go it stays in the bag like a lukewarm Braise, Beef jerky is made at temps between 150-170 deg in 24 hrs by passing warm air past the strips of meat. The Africans make a similar product called Biltong only it is a little thicker. The outside of a Brisket held at 147 deg for 48 hrs in any smoker well I'd have to call Sahara Beef; it would dehydrated to the point it would not be edible. No amount or mopping or water panery will off set hot dry air passing over a moist surface sucikng the moisture out and carrying it away right up the stack, when I was in Mrs Chambers 4 th grade Class we learnt about evaporation in science class by placing an apple slice on a plate in front of an fan

[ButtBurner]

agree with Blu

I could see sticking it inside my boot to patch a hole in the sole.

[aawa]

Originally Posted by peeps

I get impatient with a 10 hour cook...I don't know how you SV guys do it with these ultra-long cooks.

I'd be interested in results, though.

SV ultra long cooks leave the meat in there till they feel like getting around to it, because it won't go over the desired cooking temperature.

I am not a fan of the SV cooking however because it lacks any type of crust, and the texture of the meats are a little off to my liking.

[fingerlickin']

I wouldn't want to stay awake 48 hours straight moping brisket every half hour either.

[matadorbait]

OK--so I emailed Greg Blonder with this and he's already done it. Used some cheese cloth with the ends in the water pan to make sure the surface was wet the entire cook--30 hours is all. Sorry Bludawg.

Clearly 'would it work' is different from 'here's the best way to do it' or 'here's the easiest way to do it'.

[matadorbait]

OK--I tried it, but with a complication, and it came out pretty good. Basically, I followed the sous vide brisket approach (147F/64C for 48 hours) and added in the wet-to-dry no-foil method.

http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Brisket

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/w...-smoking-meats

Lastly, I used my own modified probe position to monitor the surface temp of the meat.

The subject was a 9# Beef shoulder clod from Costco (about $30--stuff aint cheap here). I trimmed it lean (see above--removed fat cap) and rubbed SPOG. I used 1% salt (ie, 40grams). Then into my dry-stack reverse-flow stickburner with full water pan running around 200F/95C dry bulb.

probes.jpg

These are my Maverick probes. The IT probe is normal, but the chamber probe is pressed against the surface of the meat to track the surface temperature. At the start of the cook, this related to the wet-bulb temperature. At the end of the cook, when the surface is dry, its closer to the dry bulb. By tracking surface temperature I can really drive the cook. By that I mean: I start off with the chamber at 95C, the surface at 5C and the IT at 5C. Within 3 hours, the chamber is at 85C, the surface at 64C, and the IT at 50C. The surface is 'stalled'. And I keep it that way, with the surface at 64C, for about 44 more hours.

The cook is then in 3 steps:

1. 12 hours of wet smoke with full water pans. Surface is 64C within a few hours, and IT is 64C by hour 5. Chamber temp varies to keep surface no more that 2 degrees off 64 in either direction. Mop with tap water when I'm not busy making pizzas in the WFO.

2. Now I empty the water pans, load up the firebox, and run overnight: 12 hours of dry smoke, surface as close to 64 as a good night's sleep allows (I love sleep more than Q). Temperature varied, but spent most of the night in the 50s. Was down to 45 when I finished my coffee, felt civilized enough, and went outside. Fuel was Almond and Oak splits, mostly Almond.

3. The next day I'm feeling too lazy to chop wood and re-start the fire (I only had ashes and residual heat), so I finished with 24 hours uncovered/dry in the oven, with IT at 64, surface at 64, and oven temp around 68C.

So, after 48 hours of uncovered cooking

done.jpg

This is a 'medium' beef shoulder clod, cooked at/to 147F/64C for 48 hours uncovered. The texture is very soft, like a very nice slice-able brisket. Almost, but not quite, overdone/mushy. Its not mealy or anything. Its not over smoked or bitter. The main problem is its just dry enough that I want sauce with it (I'm not big on saucing). With the reduced drippings, its great.

This was a fun experiment, but in 6 hours I could have had pulled beef with more bite/chew. I think I would have preferred that, but its good to know that all this ModernistCuisine and Sous Vide BS is something we can use if we want.

Thanks for looking.

[sliding_billy]

Thanks for taking the time to do the experiment. I'm sure it was fun if nothing else.

[smoke ninja]

Thanks for sharing this. You never know until you try. I would not had the guts or the patience to do that.

[Bludawg]

I tole ya it was gonna be dry