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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind. |
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07-15-2013, 11:33 PM | #76 |
is Blowin Smoke!
Join Date: 01-01-05
Location: Southern Arizona
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So.... If the best four turn ins happen to arrive at the same table, wouldn't we expect it to be, what you have termed a "money" table?
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07-15-2013, 11:35 PM | #77 |
is Blowin Smoke!
Join Date: 01-01-05
Location: Southern Arizona
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07-16-2013, 01:21 AM | #78 | |
is Blowin Smoke!
Join Date: 01-11-09
Location: Cumberland, RI
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Quote:
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07-16-2013, 07:40 AM | #79 | |
is One Chatty Farker
Join Date: 09-14-12
Location: Springfield, MO
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It is what it is. We are all aware that a good or bad table can exist when we turn in our food. That is BBQ, and as Boogiesnap pointed out, it will even out over the course of a contest and a season.
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07-16-2013, 08:06 AM | #80 | |
is One Chatty Farker
Join Date: 09-14-12
Location: Springfield, MO
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BBQ judging is subjective. I have received a 180 and a 160 on essentially the same piece of meat at two competitions. The truth was probably somewhere in the middle. I would love to have that 160 be a 170, but I don't want to give that 180 pin back!
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07-16-2013, 08:29 AM | #81 |
Full Fledged Farker
Join Date: 02-17-09
Location: Ayden, NC
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At Greenwood, SC, out of the top 10 overall teams, only Lotta Bull hit the same table twice.
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07-16-2013, 08:55 AM | #82 |
is One Chatty Farker
Join Date: 06-11-08
Location: Ames, Iowa
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I'm with Vince. At our contest this weekend there was clearly and bad table and a great table (from a cooks perspective ;-)). Fortunately for ours most, if not all, hit every table once. I have been saying for a couple of years now that sorting judges based on how they actually score, rather than on the number of contests they have competed would be a much more reliable method for equalizing the scoring across tables. You have judges that score high, score low, and score middle of the road no matter their experience level. Experience does matter a great deal, but there are still bad judges with a lot of experience and good judges with little experience.
It seems this new scoring system would open the door for tracking and sorting judges based on their variance from the mean. The question is whether or not the new system is currently keeping track of judges' scoring across multiple contests.
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07-16-2013, 09:34 AM | #83 |
Babbling Farker
Join Date: 09-22-06
Location: Pleasant Valley NY
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I'm going to use this data to help me make adjustments to things within my control. This past week for instance I know my ribs and pork tanked. I didn't really like either one but it didn't think they were as bad as they placed. Looking at the scores I can now see my ribs hit a low scoring table and the pork just tanked on its own merit.
I would have thought the judges scoring statistics would be very useful to them just as Tigerpaw mentioned. I'm not sure that we need to seat judges according to their scoring averages to even out the tables though. In our contest this weekend, the top 10 overall I think 7 of the teams had hit the low scoring table at least once so it seems to have balanced out in the end. On the other hand, the GC didn't hit it once and won by 10 points, 2-4 all hit that table and were only separated by 5 points. Who knows? I think more data is definitely need before any adjustments are made. The rest of the year should give you a good sample range to work with.
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Sean Keever "What sort of people are these charcoal masters? They behaved badly and were unconcerned with appearances. Their hair was long and unkempt and their clothes were wrinkled and old. They drank beer to and from the crab house and they made rude noises while we cooked." Tao of Charcoal |
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07-16-2013, 09:41 AM | #84 |
is one Smokin' Farker
Join Date: 12-11-09
Location: Marshall MO
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You also have to keep in mind that the low table may be low or it may be accurate. The high table may be accurate or it may be inflated. More information can be good but it can also increase the odds of a faulty conclusion. Keith
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07-16-2013, 09:45 AM | #85 | |
is Blowin Smoke!
Join Date: 09-18-11
Location: Smithville, Missouri, United States
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Assume that the non-CBJs score a point lower than the rest of the table for whatever reason. They throw the lowest out, so we can assume it's the low score, so you have two non-CBJ who score a point lower on across the board on taste from a purely arbitrary reason (at least theoretically here). You now have lowered the scores from that table by 5 points per category, per team. That's a 20 point swing for all 4 meats and can mean the difference between a GC and middle of the pack finish for overall. Of course, the same can be said for the other extreme as well. Maybe you did a middle of the road cook, but you hit the right table and you mediocre stuff got GC. But as gettin'basted says, this new system at least gives you the information to know if your entry was bad or if your luck was. Thanks to KCBS for making this change. I think it's great.
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Greg Vincent When I die, my goal is to have a visible smoke ring when the coroner cuts me open for the autopsy. |
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07-16-2013, 09:49 AM | #86 |
is Blowin Smoke!
Join Date: 09-12-07
Location: the Ninth Ring of Hell, cleverly disguised as Phoenix
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I think tracking across all categories and an accumulated body of several contests will reduce the faulty conclusion. A judge may land on a lucky table that gets all great entries, or on a poor table that gets all scary entries, but the odds of that happening in all four categories in contest after contest over time are pretty remote.
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07-16-2013, 09:57 AM | #87 |
is one Smokin' Farker
Join Date: 09-10-03
Location: Great Bend, Kansas
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With all the talk of now being able to see more data and more of the tables scores, and how this may help balance the judges better, no one has mentioned the 800 pound gorilla in the room---the judges will most likely never see any of the score sheets. How will this help any judge to realize they are too harsh or too generous unless KCBS taps them on the shoulder 5 contests down the line and say "Your scores do not fit the mean average of the other judges"?
There are a lot of great judges out there, and there are a few total dooshbags, most of my contests judged are in Kansas, and I know a couple of judges that I prefer to not sit at the same table with them. Now expand that couple of judges nationwide and there really are quite a few that are not that great. Someone once told me to remember that even though medical doctors are mostly very well respected, half of them graduated in the bottom 50% of their class.
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07-16-2013, 10:25 AM | #88 |
Babbling Farker
Join Date: 02-27-07
Location: Northern VA
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I guess I'm in the minority who think that all this table info is as useful as the history boards on roulette wheels. It's fun to use to play "what if" but otherwise statistically irrelevant. Regardless of what the score sheet says your table history at any contest is always N=1. In other words your history starts from scratch every new contest. Different judges, different table combinations different tastes. This is especially true if the judge average score is also N=1 (just the history for that contest) or if this a combined score average across all 4 meats.
If the judge's average score is cumulative then what does that really tell you? A judge averages 30.2 and you got a 32.5 from them. OK so your flavor profile hits well with that judge, but you already knew that from awards since if you consistently get scores over the judge's mean average you should be getting walks.
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07-16-2013, 10:31 AM | #89 | |
is One Chatty Farker
Join Date: 09-14-12
Location: Springfield, MO
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07-16-2013, 10:45 AM | #90 | |
Babbling Farker
Join Date: 09-22-06
Location: Pleasant Valley NY
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Quote:
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Sean Keever "What sort of people are these charcoal masters? They behaved badly and were unconcerned with appearances. Their hair was long and unkempt and their clothes were wrinkled and old. They drank beer to and from the crab house and they made rude noises while we cooked." Tao of Charcoal |
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